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Thread: ArtRage isn't coded properly? Line wobble

  1. #1

    ArtRage isn't coded properly? Line wobble

    A few days ago I bought an XP-Pen 22 and have been suffering with horrible line wobble. My recently sold Wacom 21UX did not suffer at all with this problem. As I've been trying every combination of turning on and off realtime stylus, wintab, precise tablet and not having any success in solving the problem. I stumbled upon "Lazy Nezumi Pro" as they claim to fix line wobble and list ArtRage as one of the programs that their software supposedly helps. While it improved line quality in Photoshop it only partially helps ArtRage. If I am zoomed into my canvas it will smooth the wobble most of the time. However, once I zoom out to any degree the wobble comes back. Their final solution was to turn off all of the tablet options except for Wintab which at least allowed LNP to work in ArtRage. When I told them that I was still getting wobble when zoomed out this was their final response:

    "Unfortunately that's because ArtRage isn't coded properly.
    It's using desktop-resolution mouse x/y coordinates instead of your
    tablet's high precision coords. (it only samples pressure from the tablet)."

    So, that leaves me with a new set of questions. Has anyone else had the wobbly line problem with a non-Wacom tablet/Cintiq? If so, how was it solved? Secondly, why does Wacom not suffer from this problem or does it (just not the old 21UX). Lastly, is ArtRage coded for desk-top resolution and if so any plans to change that in the future?

    Here is the link to my Youtube video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnOq8hJS8-Q&feature=youtu.be

    Btw, I'm not trying to knock ArtRage. I love the program and it plays a key role in my art process.

  2. #2
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    Sorry to hear that you're having a problem with it! Unfortunately the response from their support people is incorrect, no idea where they get that idea from.

    ArtRage supports both standard tablet input models (Wintab and Realtime Stylus) which can provide high resolution input coordinates (if the driver does) that ArtRage uses where available if Precise Tablet mode is turned on. We take location and other tablet data directly from the information packets provided, referencing high resolution input where it is made available. Looking at the video it looks like the tablet is providing high resolution input without doing any smoothing so the strokes are showing that wobble. If the wobble comes back when zoomed out that's suggesting the opposite of what their support people say: If the app were only using Desktop X/Y coordinates then the more you zoomed out, the less wobble there would be as each X/Y point shift would correspond to a larger offset on the canvas.

    In this case, because the device is a screen input device it should be using the Realtime Stylus model for tablet input per Microsoft's standard. It may be that in order to try and support a wider range of apps they're also producing Wintab data at the same time and that might be causing conflicts. The theoretical correct state of settings in ArtRage should be Wintab off, Realtime Stylus on, Precise Tablet mode on. If that was working with a Wacom tablet but not the XP-Pen one it suggests a driver difference causing a problem. I would suggest turning Wintab off, RTS on, and turning Precise Tablet mode off, somewhat counter-intuitively, to see if that helps. If it does not please contact support@artrage.com and we can look in to any further options.

    One other thing: Have you tried the ArtRage 5 demo? It's possible that some changes we made for adjustments in Microsoft's RTS standard may change how this tablet behaves with the product.
    Matt
    ArtRage UI
    Ambient Design.

  3. #3
    Thanks for the quick reply. I did try the settings in both 4.5 and 5. Better but still some wobble. It'll have to do for now. I need the better color of the XP-Pen 22 over the Wacom 21UX.

    Do you have any plans on working on the oil brush in the future? I'd like to see a slider for the amount of paint on the brush. I usually work with pressure and loading at 100%. Loading is infinite stroke but not infinite paint. I'd like to see a slider that determines how long a color remains on the brush before blending out. At one end the color never blends out. At the other end the brush has no color and is just a transparent blender. On Android the Corel Painter and Infinite Painter apps both have this slider. Be great to see it in ArtRage.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by sra-art View Post
    Do you have any plans on working on the oil brush in the future? I'd like to see a slider for the amount of paint on the brush. I usually work with pressure and loading at 100%. Loading is infinite stroke but not infinite paint. I'd like to see a slider that determines how long a color remains on the brush before blending out. At one end the color never blends out. At the other end the brush has no color and is just a transparent blender. On Android the Corel Painter and Infinite Painter apps both have this slider. Be great to see it in ArtRage.
    It's a bit hard to tell what you need because it sounds like you just described the existing Loading slider ;D The way it works is that the stroke continues, but the paint is gone after a certain point, so you can keep going with an empty brush if you want the pressure/stroke effect. 0% and 100% are the special cases that have no or infinity paint.

    If you want a different paint *thickness*, that's controlled by the Thinners. If you want 'a lot of paint that acts like 100% but runs out at some point' then you probably want 80-99% Loading.

    If you have a specific blending/color mixing result in mind, take a look at the Custom Brush > Brush Designer > Color tab and see if the Color Pickup and Refresh options are what you want. These will act a lot more like the brushes in other programs, so it's easier to mimic specific digital effects. There's also a Loading option under Stroke settings as well, but it sounds like you're more concerned with the color.

    Pick a nice brush from the Artistic category (Square Canvas 2 is popular) and then go into the Brush Designer and play around.
    https://www.artrage.com/manuals/cust...olor-settings/
    Ambient Design Tech Support & Community Manager

    This is not my signature.

    Go forth and read the tutorials. Also, check out the featured artists!

  5. #5
    Hi Hannah,

    Thanks for jumping in here. There is no slider for what I'm describing. Currently for the oil brush you have pressure and loading. I either leave thinners at a low setting or 0. I'm looking for thick oil color only.

    Pressure: 0% = thin stroke --- 100% = fat stroke
    this slider represents how hard you are pressing on the brush

    loading: 0% = transparent stroke that no longer even looks like the original transparent stroke the brush makes when it has run out of it's color but looks like thinners are being used to flatten the highlights.
    100% = this gives the illusion of thick paint and something of a thick gloss gel blender once the color runs out. This is the only "look" I'm interested in.

    The stroke I want is pressure at 100% with loading at 100%. The slider I need determines if the brush is depositing everlasting color or no color at all or some variation in the middle. Currently all combinations run out of color at the same distance.

    As far as the custom brush tool I cannot for the life of me make anything in it that resembles the oil brush as a starting point to modify away from. If you know the settings to make the oil brush please share. The easiest way to go about this in a future upgrade would be to have -a customize button inside the oil brush that once clicked allows you to modify from the pre-built settings.
    Last edited by sra-art; 07-19-2017 at 09:15 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sra-art View Post

    The stroke I want is pressure at 100% with loading at 100%. The slider I need determines if the brush is depositing everlasting color or no color at all or some variation in the middle. Currently all combinations run out of color at the same distance.
    Okay, that sounds wrong. Can you take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg6pC7IDoyM and see if a) it's acting the way it should at your end, and b) if the result you need shows up/if you can describe it better if it is acting as it should.
    Ambient Design Tech Support & Community Manager

    This is not my signature.

    Go forth and read the tutorials. Also, check out the featured artists!

  7. #7
    The video gave examples of the oil brush painting on a blank canvas at which point the oil brush when set to 100% loading will carry the color until you stop the stroke. What I'm talking about is painting into an image already covered in oil paint and not having the color run out of the brush near the beginning of the stroke. The slider I want will allow the brush set to 100 pressure/100 loading to paint into "wet paint", not dry canvas or oil paint deposited from the insta-dry setting. I want the brush to be able to deposit everlasting oil into wet paint.
    Last edited by sra-art; 07-19-2017 at 10:00 AM.

  8. #8
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    So you just don't want the color to mix very much with the paint that's already there? But not work with actual dry paint? That isn't possible with the oils, it has a very specific mixing behaviour (the colour isn't running out, it's just blending and picking up colour from the existing paint).

    If you want to control the color pickup/blending rate, you'll need to try the Custom Brush. Open the Presets and try the brushes in the Artistic group to find some that look and act like paint brushes (the Bristles or Square Canvas ones are probably best). You can also make your own brushes, but it's easier to start with premade ones until you know your way around a bit. If they don't blend quite the way you need, go to the Settings > Brush Designer > Color settings tab. Adjust the pick up and refresh rates until it acts the way you want.

    https://www.artrage.com/manuals/cust...olor-settings/

    The Oil Brush and the Custom Brush can produce very similar results, but they aren't interchangeable. The Custom Brush is basically the same thing as the brushes you see in other programs, with no simulation effects (depth, wetness, live paint interaction) with a custom dab shape and textured grain pattern. It isn't actually blending into existing paint, just picking up colours as it passes over, which means that you can get far more customised control, but also that it can't always achieve the same natural results as the oils.
    Ambient Design Tech Support & Community Manager

    This is not my signature.

    Go forth and read the tutorials. Also, check out the featured artists!

  9. #9
    So when you say it isn't possible because it has a very specific mixing behavior are you referring to how ArtRage operates currently or are you saying it cannot be written into the code in the future. If it can't be written into the code, why not.

    As far as the brushes in the custom brush generator I am not really interested in any of the results I have seen so far. The only reason I am using this program is for the oil brush which as you know is unique in the world of digital art programs.
    Last edited by sra-art; 07-19-2017 at 11:51 AM.

  10. #10
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    I'm saying that how it operates currently, I don't know if it can be added in if we rewrite it in future. Whether a code rewrite of the oils will result in an entirely new version of the oil simulation that allows this... well, that's pure speculation right now. This isn't just 'adjust rate of new colour on brush', it's also affected by paint depth and the colour blending algorithms and the amount of paint on your brush and the type of paint on the brush. The oil brush doesn't work anything like a normal digital brush, so just adding in a 'different colour pickup rate' isn't a matter of adding a new menu option, it requires rewriting how the entire thing works. Finetuning the way it blends is something that we'd look at when updating anyway, but even if it changes somehow, it may not be user-editable beyond the existing options.

    So yes, the oil brush is unique, but the trade off for unique natural media simulation is that you lose some of the fine scale digital control you get with brushes like the Custom Brush or Photoshop. They just work differently and require different working styles; either you learn to work with the tool, or you find a less realistic brush that you can adapt to fit your needs.

    It's possible we can suggest some ways to get the final look that you want - if you want the visible texture, you can paint texture on a layer below afterwards, for example. But painting wet paint into wet paint without the paint actually mixing much is generally going to be pretty unrealistic. There are always going to be some edge cases that let you get that effect traditionally, but there are limits to digital simulation.
    Ambient Design Tech Support & Community Manager

    This is not my signature.

    Go forth and read the tutorials. Also, check out the featured artists!

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