ArtRage 5 Product PageArtRage Lite Product PageArtRage for iOS Product PageArtRage for Android Product PageArtRage  Android Oil Painter Free Product PageArtRage  Free Demos Page

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 33

Thread: How much we can get from the pen input on tablet pc?

  1. #1

    How much we can get from the pen input on tablet pc?

    Hello,

    After some time spend with AR I noticed that one thing irritates me.

    When I'm drawing really fast in AR, witch I prefers I notice that AR is just too slow for that? I mean the program need some time to start recording the input. I don't know how precise describe it... check the image. It's some kind of comparison to SB pro. Firstly I drew a vertical line, then I was trying to drew fast horizontal lines which start at the vertical line. Also check the triangles- its hard to draw from point to point and make closed shape....I also have problem with small ellipses- occasionally they looks more like U not O.

    I think that SB pro have that crazy 'stylus responsiveness' ability and that makes input in that soft much smoother and faster.


    So, any advice how get it in AR? Maybe developers could start think about some acceleration tool in next update?

    btw. I have asus ep121 with default windows drivers, win x64, AR v.3.5.1.
    In AR input settings i have all options ON except wintab.[wintab do nothing]
    Last edited by kurt_hectic; 08-14-2011 at 01:23 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    601
    Well, I wondered if you had Precise Tablet checked under your preferences, and I also wondered whether you had smoothing on, which I find alters my strokes much more than I want, but I tried duplicating your experience, and I agree, the program does seem to need to "catch up" before it starts the beginning of the input (not just catch up to the existing input, like lagging, but actually not seeming to start the line where I put it), particularly if I'm working quickly with the pencil tool.

    Honestly, although I love Artrage, I rarely use it for it's pencil or ink tools. I find them very unexpressive, the line weight is sort of dead, and they won't really alter their opacity or width much depending on pressure. I know the intent is to have them (particularly the pencil) relate to the canvas texture well, etc. but in truth, I find my pencil sketches with it look nothing like they would normally look if I drew them. I much prefer Sketchbook Pro for my line work, which I then import to artrage for my color work. Sketchbook Pro is also not quite like really drawing it, but I find it closer.

    I wish Artrage had what I would describe as "more expressive" pencil and ink tools, but so far I haven't been able to get it to do what I need.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    3438 ft above sea level
    Posts
    2,951
    No problems on my tabletPC see attached

    From your image it looks like you may have the precise pencil mode ON in your pencil settings. If this is the case, knock the smoothing way down. Having a high smoothing value can cause lines to 'snap' away from where you draw.

    If this isn't the cause:-
    Like Steve suggests try turning off precise tablet in the preferences.
    Make sure your wacom driver is the latest.
    Calibrate. One thing i've learned from working on the Cintiq for the past year is that these wacom/monitor devices need calibration often. Its not a set it and forget it one of thing.

    Personally I love the Artrage pencil and find it to be far more like real graphite pencils so i prefer to sketch in artrage. I'd recommend downloading Someonesane's soft sketching pencil as a good start for settings on the tool.
    I find the Sketchbook pencil to be far more like a mechanical pencil and use that for drawing up more precise things like logo design.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Juz; 08-13-2011 at 03:02 PM.
    "I paint because I love to cut mats" (Arthur Alexander)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    NC, USA
    Posts
    2,874
    I can't say I've ever run into that problem, either. I used ArtRages pencil earlier today, in fact, to draw an expression sheet for the project forums.

    Nothing is easy to the unwilling.

  5. #5
    Precise Tablet must be ON in my case, when is OFF, yeah lines starts where they should but also looks like zig-zags.

    I haven't got latest drivers, that's the pain (don't know if AR works faster on it) but I must keep the standard windows drivers coz of calibration trick...http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/ep12...ion-trick.html

    So, now I'm at the same point as Steve (with is not bad! but some improvement in the future are welcome ;]) : " I much prefer Sketchbook Pro for my line work, which I then import to artrage for my color work."

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    601
    Quote Originally Posted by Juz View Post
    I find the Sketchbook pencil to be far more like a mechanical pencil and use that for drawing up more precise things like logo design.
    This is interesting to me Juz.

    Granted the Artrage pencil has way more texture than the Sketchbook Pro pencil, but the lineweight is very mechanical for the Artrage pencil, meaning it doesn't change much (if at all) in width. In Sketchbook Pro the pencil really responds to pressure much more in terms of width and line weight. Of course, that's not how a pencil really works, but I find my final drawings in Sketchbook Pro end up having that sort of varied width and density that occurs naturally when you're tilting the pencil a bit here and there on paper. Comparatively, in Artrage, although I can "tilt" the pencil, that never really has that "in context" responsiveness I want when I'm actually making a line. Instead, the pencil stays very thin, and doesn't vary much at all except for opacity.

    Perhaps I'm misreading you, because I'd be interested in getting more out of the Artrage pencils, but it seems to me like it is actually the Artrage pencil that is much more like a mechanical pencil. Also, yes, I've got Someonesane's soft sketcher, which is very cool on his cardboard paper, particularly so with the Soft Sketcher blender, and I've got Precise Tablet checked. And I think if you're going for that kind of blended pencil work I can see the value of Artrage pencils. If I'm just sort of line-sketching though, I find the Sketchbook pencil much more expressive.

    edit:
    Here I've actually upload a pic of a test I did, where the Artrage pencil (on the right) always stays the same width, where I am only capable of drawing with a permenantly sharpened tip. Alternately the Sketchbook Pro pencil (on the left) has lots of play in terms of line weight, as if I were moving the pencil around a bit on its edge, etc. Of course, you can blend with the Artrage pencil, which I show, and which is awesome, but only if you're doing a true pencil drawing, with blending, etc.

    Am I missing something? Settings, etc? Or do we just have different opinions?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Pencil weight test.jpg 
Views:	94 
Size:	25.6 KB 
ID:	58926  
    Last edited by Steve B; 08-14-2011 at 03:39 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    NC, USA
    Posts
    2,874
    To me, your example looks closer to a type of felt pen. Something like the pens caricature artists use for quick sketches. And yes, that sort of line work will be very expressive, due the variances of values and widths in the lines. But to me, it doesn't really read as a pencil mark. If the ArtRage crew added an option to the AirBrush tool, to allow it to control the line width by pressure (it already has the option to do this with the opacity), it'd probably come fairly close to that look. It might be possible via the sticker Spray, though.

    What a pencil line should look like, when draw on a computer, will pretty much always be a matter of opinion. When I'm talking "pencil" I'm looking for the old school, graphite on paper look.

    Name:  eyeonpaper.jpg
Views: 1019
Size:  23.7 KB
    Nothing is easy to the unwilling.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    3,140
    Our pencils are modelled around graphite pencils on paper. When we did initial experiments we didn't observe that much size change based on pressure (except when the tip broke and bits of graphite exploded everywhere, which we decided not to include in the simulation...). I think we did talk about blunting at one point, but decided it would be too confusing to have a tool that changed size during use, and that a pencil wouldn't normally blunt enough in the space of a single stroke to make it appropriate for the simulation.

    The Inking Pen is really our 'solid line with pressure variance' tool, designed to allow you to use pressure to vary size and create a solid stroke with optional smoothing. It's our tip of the hat to digital tools that seemed to adopt the pressure->size model early on and never let go of it.
    Matt
    ArtRage UI
    Ambient Design.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    601
    You know, it's an interesting question. I think Sos's sketch is proof positive that the pencil works as a sketching tool where you're going to do shading with smudging, etc. I like the tool for that. I just don't use it much because I'm generally using pencils in real life for rough sketching before I ink or paint. Therefore, I'm not usually "shading" like in Sos's pic.

    I agree that the Sketchbook Pro tool is more like a felt tip pen, in essence. It's not perfect, but to me it approximates the experience of a pencil's usage best, because, in my personal experience, a pencil _always_ dulls a bit, and that 2x edge becomes part of the usage of the tool when doing rough line work and sketches where you're not blending. The line weight does vary, IMO atleast.

    I agree that the pen tool is more like the Sketchbook Pro pencil in the sense that it has pressure sensitive width variance, but it doesn't have the same opacity variance that the Sketchbook Pro pencil has, or that the pencil tool in Artrage has.

    What I wish I could get is a tool that was pressure responsive for width AND opacity, and yet have the great graphite textural quality that the Artrage pencil tool has. This would allow me to approximate the end-result visual experience of drawing with a pencil better (i.e. giving me that variety of line width I feel like I get in rough sketches with a real pencil versus a mechanical pencil), IMO, without needing the tilt function of an Intuos to achieve it.

    My two cents anyways, since we're having a conversation about it.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    3438 ft above sea level
    Posts
    2,951
    @Steve. I never use precise pencil mode as its 'smoothing' causes marks to snap away from where you actually place them. This to me is not something I want. The precise pencil option makes it function more like a mechanical pencil or fineliner. If I were someone who prefered to sketch in a medium like biro or a mechanical pencil or only as lineart then this precise mode option might be suitable but my personal preference is to always have it set to off as I, like SOS, am seeking something that emulates real world graphite pencils.

    In my own experience when I did formal drawing and design classes as part of my BA and AssDip (7 years in all) my first rude awakening was that we were never allowed to use a blunted pencil even for heavy shading. These areas were achieved through strokes/hatching and not smudging/forcing the medium into the paper grain with pressure as it flattens the look of the drawing, destroys the grain and smudges. It also means you cannot lift any medium from the gaps in the surface with a kneadable later. Gradations were achieved with strokes not smudges. Expression in the line was achieved by addressing line weight, not by allowing a pencil to get blunt. Drawings were expected to be completed using a full range of pencil from 6h to 6b that were always sharp. In those days we were expected to sharpen constantly with a blade *groan.

    For me the artrage pencil far more mirrors the way I was formally taught to draw with real world graphite pencils. I would have given anything for magical graphite pencils that always stayed sharp and artrage has answered that wish wonderfully.

    With regards to the tool offering varied lineweight (expression), I believe having tools support 'Tilt' has been requested many times and it may therefore appear in a later version of artrage. As Artrage tools do try to emulate as closely as possible their real media counterparts, it is valid, I believe, to request a pencil that can work on its side. I personally hope that if 'tilt' is implemented that it is done as an on/off toggle so that I can continue to work the way I was taught (nice sharp pencils ).

    In its short history the Artrage team has been very responsive to user requests for functionality where demand is high. Let's remember that sketchbook is a much older product while artrage is still a young version 3x and that because it's young there will be lots of changes to the toolset as it matures. Its interesting to note how much more robust a product artrage is already considering its still in early versions.

    For design work that required precise fine lines (usually controlled by rulers, set squares and french curves), I would use mechanical pencils often. The Sketchbook pro pencil emulates this sort of pencil extremely well. This is why when doing that sort of precise design I would tend to use sketchbook. Any lineart design that I need to then trace off with a pentool in Illustrator, sketchbook is ideal for.

    A portrait done in sketchbook would never be mistaken for anything done in real world media. Painter's pencil tool (with a lot of customisation) always made a closer approximation to what could be achieved in real world pencil and there are works from it where you have to check that the shine off the graphite is not there to know.

    This may account for why, in general (of course there is always exceptions), over their respective histories, painter is the product that has tended to lure fine artist sketching people and sketchbook pro has tended to lure industrial designers.

    Now artrage too can offer this very close approximation to real world graphite pencils, given the right pencil settings, the correct shade of graphite grey and a decent paper texture.

    As observed by SOS the marks you're looking to achieve are not really reflective of any real world graphite pencil. A real world graphite pencil always contains grain unless you are overloading the paper, which shouldn't ever be done.

    Don't mistake me, I'm not telling you how to work here, if something works for you by all means thats the way you should work. This is the beauty of computers or real world media, what works for one may be completely useless to another. If you are doing comic/inking type work then it's perfectly understandable why the sketchbook toolset might be more appropriate/desirable to you for underlying lineart.

    At the end of the day I maintain that the artrage pencil is far more reflective of real world graphite pencils than the sketchbook offering. I'm not claiming its superior to the sketchbook pencil, just that it emulates real graphite far better. Both pencils are tools in your drawing arsenal and its always up to you the artist to decide which is appropriate to the task at hand.


    @Kurt. I'm aware of the amazon trick for calibration but personally would not give up the ability to finetune pressure sensitivity using the Tip feel control of the 'pen properties' dialog which allows you to use very light pressure on the tablet to make a mark. Without the ISD driver and its pen properties dialog you have to press really hard to make your marks and in my experience its harder to get a good variety of pressure in the marks working this way, giving up the ability to finetune. Also without the wacom driver there is no pressure sensitivity at all in certain applications eg/ photoshop, making it useless to me to go this route. The four point default calibration is fine for accuracy if done often. This is the way my 21UX works as well.

    The wobble in lines is caused from drawing from the wrist (which chokes lines) and not the arm (you can see in the bottom of my triangle that I was guilty of that one there ). This will occur with real world pencil as well, though it is far more exaggerated on sensitive tablet devices. Its hard not to fall into this habit when working on a smaller drawing surface as the more cramped the space the more we're forced into using the wrist. Being conscious of keeping your wrist loose will help, as will doing simple warm up drawing exercises before commencing your drawing session.
    Last edited by Juz; 08-14-2011 at 09:46 PM.
    "I paint because I love to cut mats" (Arthur Alexander)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •