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Thread: Why are we still Painting?

  1. #21
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    Also, I for one would like to learn the traditional methods.. I think there are some things that shouldn't be the exclusive domain of computers.

    The last time I kept an open mind,
    my brain fell out and the dog grabbed it.
    Now it's full of dirt, toothmarks, and dog slobber.
    No more open minds or dogs for me.www.gms9810.com/

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gms9810 View Post
    Also, I for one would like to learn the traditional methods.. I think there are some things that shouldn't be the exclusive domain of computers.
    Yeah. It's all in the eye of the beholder as it were. I can see what works for me. And I can see others should look at it however they want to. I had a lot of fun working for years doing things the old fashioned way. Was also often a pain.

    I still think the Undo feature is the greatest thing that ever happened to Art. It's almost as if the art we're making is nothing but a thought with all that free malleability until that moment we shout "Done! Save As!" That's like externalizing thought as you think stuff through. Allows for progress like leaping from plateau top plateau without losing ground.

    On the other hand, it's not essential to work that way, especially when you're using traditional materials and know what you're doing, or are doing a technique in which you can paint over and paint over to adjust. Each direction has its pluses and minuses. All of it's worthy. If you like traditional materials, then that's certainly what you should use when you chose to do so.
    "Not a bit is wasted and the best is yet to come. . ." -- remembered from a dream

  3. #23
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    I couldn't agree more about the undo, tis a true lifesaver. However, there can't be different medias, just colors. Example, I paint a few strokes in "oil" then right into that I slap on some watercolor, they mix just fine. in real media that could never happen. Or paint on some water color then switch to chalk or wax crayon. and they all mix just like a big happy family. Although not realistic it can be fun and useful. And I'm not bashing AR because every other drawing package I've seen works the same way. I wish a little window would pop up saying "idiot, you can't do that."

    The last time I kept an open mind,
    my brain fell out and the dog grabbed it.
    Now it's full of dirt, toothmarks, and dog slobber.
    No more open minds or dogs for me.www.gms9810.com/

  4. #24
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    Just to be lapidary this time, as a possible conclusion of the last exchange: if You enjoy travelling by car, does it mean doeing it by biking or walking isn't worthwhile anymore?
    Each way has pros and cons and no one excludes the others. Paraphrasing Shakespeare we may say "A travel would move You among places as well by any other means (and name), or even without any means but Your mind maybe, wouldn't it".
    Panta rei (everything flows)!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gms9810 View Post
    . . .I wish a little window would pop up saying "idiot, you can't do that."
    Oh man, George, you're running into the artist's conundrum. It looks like it opened another door that we all, as creators, face sooner or later.

    Two different points here:

    1) When on the computer we are painting with pixels. And when painting with little cubes of light, you can do that. So we can put that one aside for the moment.

    2) I agree in principle with you even though not necessarily in your point of contention with digital vs traditional materials. I think the issue is far bigger than ArtRage. It's about being a creator. Never underestimate the incredible value of setting limitations. When dealing with the infinite, for the creative person, reduction seems to be the only way we can grab and manipulate anything at all, and see it and show it.

    The creative challenge, and sometimes the hardest part of that process, is being willing to narrow things down. Knowing where to cut and how much to not use in creating something is the flip side to bringing something into form.

    It's true of writers, of artists, of musicians, it's true in allocating resources, budgeting, eating, choosing who to like, who to love, how many to love, how much medicine to take, and which kind. The flip side is also knowing when either extreme of freedom or restriction is working against us.

    We pick a section to manipulate, and we learn proportion. After a point, we don't have to puke before we know it's too much alcohol we're drinking. . . if any. Sometimes it's called wisdom, sometimes prudence, sometimes mastery, and it's essential to any artist to know what works for them. Inhale and exhale. Expand -- contract. And this process is what defines the difference between artists.

    Just be selective with digital mediums, and don't leave every choice to the computer. If you don't like mixing oil with water, then police yourself.

    To accept this fact or narrowing what I'm aiming for, it took me, personally, far too long to learn. My imagination is vast, and that infinite expanse of potential doesn't allow for those thoughts even to be fit into sentences, or to fit onto a canvas. I end up dissatisfied and frustrated because I compare what I've done and feel like I totally missed the target, because what I end up doing from that mindset is never ever even close. I think it's also the bane of our existence for those who never learn to accept that limits already exist in our world when not working within mostly set parameters.

    I think the reality of that condition is why spirituality get's shoved into religions, and why religions become so narrow, exclusive and dogmatic -- the high stuff gets pulled down by the demands of the narrow, by sometimes well-meaning ones who have agendas that are very specific because that's where their reality lies. Yet, there exists a perpetual effort among visionary humans to try to grasp those shiny keys that are just out of reach above our cribs, in every endeavor of life. It's also why artists are often called having their heads in the clouds.

    Since there is no right and wrong answer in Art, it makes it really hard on the artist as visionary. It's great for an apprentice or someone working in a pre-existing studio where it's very clear what they are doing. But we're talking about two different worlds.

    It also seems why computers have removed such constraints where they can, and it's why people embrace that freedom.

    When you figure it out, lemme know.
    "Not a bit is wasted and the best is yet to come. . ." -- remembered from a dream

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Akey View Post
    Oh man, George, you're running into the artist's conundrum. It looks like it opened another door that we all, as creators, face sooner or later.

    Two different points here:

    1) When on the computer we are painting with pixels. And when painting with little cubes of light, you can do that. So we can put that one aside for the moment.

    2) I agree in principle with you even though not necessarily in your point of contention with digital vs traditional materials. I think the issue is far bigger than ArtRage. It's about being a creator. Never underestimate the incredible value of setting limitations. When dealing with the infinite, for the creative person, reduction seems to be the only way we can grab and manipulate anything at all, and see it and show it.

    The creative challenge, and sometimes the hardest part of that process, is being willing to narrow things down. Knowing where to cut and how much to not use in creating something is the flip side to bringing something into form.

    It's true of writers, of artists, of musicians, it's true in allocating resources, budgeting, eating, choosing who to like, who to love, how many to love, how much medicine to take, and which kind. The flip side is also knowing when either extreme of freedom or restriction is working against us.

    We pick a section to manipulate, and we learn proportion. After a point, we don't have to puke before we know it's too much alcohol we're drinking. . . if any. Sometimes it's called wisdom, sometimes prudence, sometimes mastery, and it's essential to any artist to know what works for them. Inhale and exhale. Expand -- contract. And this process is what defines the difference between artists.

    Just be selective with digital mediums, and don't leave every choice to the computer. If you don't like mixing oil with water, then police yourself.

    To accept this fact or narrowing what I'm aiming for, it took me, personally, far too long to learn. My imagination is vast, and that infinite expanse of potential doesn't allow for those thoughts even to be fit into sentences, or to fit onto a canvas. I end up dissatisfied and frustrated because I compare what I've done and feel like I totally missed the target, because what I end up doing from that mindset is never ever even close. I think it's also the bane of our existence for those who never learn to accept that limits already exist in our world when not working within mostly set parameters.

    I think the reality of that condition is why spirituality get's shoved into religions, and why religions become so narrow, exclusive and dogmatic -- the high stuff gets pulled down by the demands of the narrow, by sometimes well-meaning ones who have agendas that are very specific because that's where their reality lies. Yet, there exists a perpetual effort among visionary humans to try to grasp those shiny keys that are just out of reach above our cribs, in every endeavor of life. It's also why artists are often called having their heads in the clouds.

    Since there is no right and wrong answer in Art, it makes it really hard on the artist as visionary. It's great for an apprentice or someone working in a pre-existing studio where it's very clear what they are doing. But we're talking about two different worlds.

    It also seems why computers have removed such constraints where they can, and it's why people embrace that freedom.

    When you figure it out, lemme know.
    Holy words, dear DAkey!
    That's actually what we learned by eating the apple in the Eden garden: "pls lemme see now, dear creature of mine, how You can play God with Your limitations once You set Yourself free to pursue Your individual needs and wishes, to get by Yourself alone, referenceless and boundless as Your own life source. Alas there's no way Your infinite potential can be enclosed just in Yourself and still deploy and fullfill all You can be and do". The essence of what You said in a few millennia ago words perhaps.
    So, the most our talents are, the worst is the opportunities explosion and the most limited is the time and means You feel You have and actually have.

    Once You learn this lesson (the sooner the best), You learn responsibility and effectiveness hopefully and also that either You fit into a mankind and universal scope, into an immensely larger entity and vision, not as a projection of Yourselg as a God, or You're an astronaut lost in space.
    The highest conquest in art and intelligence is possibly to have discovered measure, canon, proportion, relationship, balancing, harmony (not extremes, gigantisms, absolute sizes and measure). Those words are the only way we can probably focus and spot beauty, make fully visible and understandable reality, just like fixing axioms and make all a whole branch of logics and mathematics undestandable, enjoyabe imtuitable as a model, a translation for an otherwise elusive reality. You may obviously change those rules, breach them to some extent and see what happens, seek for further progressing, but You cannot define Yourself against anything and anyone else as a brand new new universe creator or You would certainly fail and build sand castles which will eventually crumble, sooner or later.
    Personally I eventually found, quite late alas, a satisfying truce in my hopeless battle with my immoderate juvenile ambitions and silly "infinite-resources" approach and the final agreement is, in any field, that anything original enough, new or innovative enough, surprising enough, for myself to start, is an achievement I should appreciate and enjoy and I should not measure against any kind of hypothetical perfection, something too much similar to a mere trivial perception copy or to death in a way.
    Even more important, I think, is that anything we do, we have to find a way to have fun doing it. Happiness is not a place we may reach once and for all and stay in this world, rather a flow (panta rei, to tell it with Eraclitus) that we have to follow somehow, also swimming among eddies and vortices, almost drowning sometimes, but keeping faith and hope. What's our eventual, ultimate status or virtue or reality, these ones will determine once beyond the irreversible veil, that's something each of us may probably expect differently or not see as an issue, but I guess the path we walk still and always matters.
    Last edited by Caesar; 10-27-2015 at 04:20 AM.
    Panta rei (everything flows)!

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar View Post
    Holy words, dear DAkey!
    That's actually what we learned by eating the apple in the Eden: "pls lemme see now how can You play God with Your limitations once You set Yourself free to pursue Your individual needs and wishes, to get by Yourself alone and boundlessly. No way Your potential can be enclosed in Yourself and fullfill all You can be and do". The most our talents are the worst is the opportunities explosion and the most limited is the time You feel You have". Once You learn this lesson, the sooner the best, You learn responsibility and effectiveness hopefully and also that either You fit into mankind, into an immensely larger entity and vision or You're an astronaut lost in space.
    The highest conquest in art and intelligence is possibly measure, canon, proportion, relationship, balancing, the only way we can probably focus and spot beauty, make fully visible and understandable reality, just like fixing axioms and make all a whole branch of logics and mathematics undestandable, enjoyabe imtuitable as a model, a translation for an otherwise elusive reality. You may obviously change those rules, breach them a little and see what happens, but You cannot define Yourself against anything and anyone else as a new universe creator or You would certainly fail or build a sand castle which will eventually crumble, sooner or later.
    Personally I eventually found, quite late alas, a satisfying truce in my hopeless battle with my immoderate juvenile ambitions and silly "infinite-resources" approach and the final agreement is, in any field, that anything original enough, new or innovative enough, surprising enough is an achievement I should appreciate and enjoy and not measure against any kind of hypothetical perfection, something too much similar to death in a way. Even more important is that anything we do, we have to find a way to have fun doing it. Happiness is not a place we may rach and stay, rather a flow we have to follow somehow swimming among eddies and vortices, almost drowning sometimes, but keeping faith and hope. What's our eventual, ultimate status or virtue or reality these ones will determine, once beyond the irreversible veil, is something each of us may probably expect differently or not as an issue, but the path, I guess, always matters.
    Yeah, good points, Caesar. It's a real challenge for me especially when having had more than my share of romantic ideals to measure my reality against while growing up (especially having grown up at the end of the hippie era when the whole country was going through that questioning adolescence at the same time -- all questions, and few answers). It's sort of what pulled me into being an artist - in order to find and anchor some answers for myself in that endlessly undulating thing I call a life. And in a way I'm rather glad that there may be permanent choices, but no permanent universal answers. Keeps the questions coming and things lively.

    I once heard a speaker of Eastern spiritual consciousness say about these things when being born into the body and wanting to withdraw into a cave as a hermit and simply be ecstatic all the time, it was offered as a way to ground them back into the world (paraphrasing slightly), "(Listen), you've enrolled in the school. Why not take the curriculum. . ." So it seems a fairly universal human issue about that split in us -- about where we place our focus and the degrees.

    The point to that I took to mean that these limitations we have by being human carries with it particular, and custom tailored lessons based on how we handle them. And that works for me, since it's merely an approach that leaves it wide open for variations that dance with the ever-changing experiences. And so some of us make pictures as the form our dance takes.

    Dynamic, eh?
    "Not a bit is wasted and the best is yet to come. . ." -- remembered from a dream

  8. #28
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    Oh, believe me, I wasn't complaining, (I think) I like the option to mix impossible things.

    The last time I kept an open mind,
    my brain fell out and the dog grabbed it.
    Now it's full of dirt, toothmarks, and dog slobber.
    No more open minds or dogs for me.www.gms9810.com/

  9. #29
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    Mi opinión personal:
    Yo comecé a pintar en el método tradicional..., bueno, estamos hablando de los años 60 (siglo pasado!)...
    Solamente, desde el año 2007 yo pude acceder a Internet en mi casa...
    ...Y descubrí la primera versión gratuita de Art Rage!!!
    Inmediatamente me hice a mi mismo un FAN...
    Casi no he vuelto a tomar los pinceles desde entonces...
    Pero, ...saben uds. qué cosa echo de menos???
    El olor a trementina, y demás solventes...
    Quedarme sin telas para seguir pintando...
    Quedarme sin pinceles...
    Quedarme sin pomos/tubos de óleo...

    Utilizo mucho este software para crear material didáctico que luego utilizo en mis clases...
    Muchas veces he pensado que pintar en la PC, y no con pinceles reales, es como escribir en una máquina de escribir Underwood, vs pluma con tinta china!!!

    My personal opinion:
    I started painting in the traditional method ... well, we're talking about the 60s (last century!) ...
    Only, since 2007 I could access the Internet at home ...
    ... And I found the first free version of Art Rage !!!
    Immediately I made myself a FAN ...
    I almost no retaken brushes since ...
    But ... you know. which I miss thing ???
    The smell of turpentine, and other solvents ...
    Go without "canvas" to continue painting ...
    Stay without brushes ...
    Stay without knobs / oil tubes ...
    Much use this software to create learning materials later use in my classes ...
    Many times I have thought that painting on the PC, not with real brushes, is like writing on a typewriter Underwood, vs pen with ink !!!
    Regards from Chile
    "El arte no reproduce lo visible. Lo hace visible" Paul Klee

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by damasocl View Post
    Mi opinión personal:
    Yo comecé a pintar en el método tradicional..., bueno, estamos hablando de los años 60 (siglo pasado!)...
    Solamente, desde el año 2007 yo pude acceder a Internet en mi casa...
    ...Y descubrí la primera versión gratuita de Art Rage!!!
    Inmediatamente me hice a mi mismo un FAN...
    Casi no he vuelto a tomar los pinceles desde entonces...
    Pero, ...saben uds. qué cosa echo de menos???
    El olor a trementina, y demás solventes...
    Quedarme sin telas para seguir pintando...
    Quedarme sin pinceles...
    Quedarme sin pomos/tubos de óleo...

    Utilizo mucho este software para crear material didáctico que luego utilizo en mis clases...
    Muchas veces he pensado que pintar en la PC, y no con pinceles reales, es como escribir en una máquina de escribir Underwood, vs pluma con tinta china!!!

    My personal opinion:
    I started painting in the traditional method ... well, we're talking about the 60s (last century!) ...
    Only, since 2007 I could access the Internet at home ...
    ... And I found the first free version of Art Rage !!!
    Immediately I made myself a FAN ...
    I almost no retaken brushes since ...
    But ... you know. which I miss thing ???
    The smell of turpentine, and other solvents ...
    Go without "canvas" to continue painting ...
    Stay without brushes ...
    Stay without knobs / oil tubes ...
    Much use this software to create learning materials later use in my classes ...
    Many times I have thought that painting on the PC, not with real brushes, is like writing on a typewriter Underwood, vs pen with ink !!!
    Me too. I feel guilty about having all these art supplies and having no interest in making such a mess. But they are just sitting as I work on the computer.
    Even though I bought a bunch of odorless turpentine, it still has toxic vapors, only you cannot smell it (very much). I can still smell a little of it.
    And when I used airbrush, the dust from the paint in the air always flew around the room settling on the furniture, stereos, and in my nose and lungs. I always had problems with my airbrush parts getting clogged, air compressors spitting condensation onto my painting, cutting friskets, and then there was the very costly price of art supplies, and having to buy, transport and store them.

    Yes, I loved it and hated it all at the same time. I figured it was just part of the job, like fishermen had to deal with the sea, the weather, mending nets, keeping the fish fresh to market etc. All jobs have some price to pay, even if you love it.

    That's a great analogy about writing with a pen versus with a typewriter.

    ----------

    Yo también. Me siento culpable por tener todos estos materiales de arte y que no tiene interés en hacer un desastre. Pero ellos sólo están sentados como yo trabajo en el equipo.
    A pesar de que me he comprado un montón de trementina inodora , todavía tiene vapores tóxicos , sólo que no puede oler ( mucho). Todavía puedo oler un poco de él.
    Y cuando yo solía aerógrafo, el polvo de la pintura en el aire siempre voló alrededor del asentamiento en la de muebles , equipos de música , y en mi nariz y los pulmones . Siempre he tenido problemas con mis partes aerógrafo se obstruya , compresores de aire escupiendo condensación en mi pintura, corte friskets , y entonces no era el precio muy costoso de artículos de arte , y tener que comprar , transportar y almacenar.

    Sí , me encantó y lo odiaba , todo al mismo tiempo. Pensé que era sólo una parte del trabajo, como los pescadores tuvieron que lidiar con el mar , el clima , arreglando redes , manteniendo el pescado fresco al mercado , etc. Todos los trabajos tienen algún precio a pagar , incluso si te encanta.

    Eso es una gran analogía de escribir con una pluma en comparación con una máquina de escribir.
    Last edited by D Akey; 10-28-2015 at 06:00 AM.
    "Not a bit is wasted and the best is yet to come. . ." -- remembered from a dream

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