Rebelle 4

[Pat McDonald]

Artrage is IMO by far the best digital art programme around.

But I do have others, and Rebelle is one, so in anticipation of the new Rebelle 4 I did a painting in Rebelle 3.

It is good, very good, and I like it, but ...

... I have a very simple way of comparing differing applications: I do the same painting in both Artrage and any alternative.

The outcome is always the same. Artrage is better. Always !!!!!!!!

I saw a user's comment last night in Rebelle's YouTube pre-announcement saying that Artrage is so 'past it'. That the programme is never (rarely, surely) updated and is showing its age.

So this morning I did my normal process; a painting in Rebelle 3 and the same job in Artrage.

The winner? As ever, Artrage. You lads (and lassies, obviously) have a winner (even if Argentina did defeat you!).

Pat

[markw]

Hi Pat:)
I may just have to agree with you :)
All paint programs have their good and bad points, and AR is no exception, but it is the one I keep coming back to if not reaching for first when painting.

[Kate12345]

I do love the water affects in Rebelle and the oil effects in Artrage. Good excuse to buy both!

[nekomata]

I've just watched the video announcement, and judging by that, as well the screenshots that escapemotion have posted, it looks inspired by the vile corel painter thick paint oil brush set.

rebelle watercolors are genius, but this oil thing is not it. not interested at all.

[DarkOwnt]

It seems like the software (Rebelle 4) is focused on the end result (of skilled or unskilled strokes) looking like oil (to a layperson), rather than the process of painting feeling (to a real media artist) like using real oils. The teaser video shows a guy doing stuff in a way that does not seem to match reality. Something like instadry is used first (I do like how the already dry paint acts as texture for the subsequent strokes...) and then alla prima with a knife.... and then "melting" of the paint with... I don't know what melts paint quite like that.


In my view, when simulating an existing media (like oils) this superficial focus on whether laypersons can make things look like what they think oil should look like, is a mistake by most developers.


IMHO for the next leaps in this technology to win over real media and mixed media artists, the focus has to be on the process of painting itself, daubing and stroking, and blending, and having that process feel more like using real paint.



I think the first developer to introduce into their software a subtractive and additive color system, one which mimics the real additive (opaque) and subtractive (transparent) elements in real world pigments, which are found in real media, so that an experienced oil painter familiar with for example the the Zorn palette can mix away and get expected results, will take the market by storm.


A paint material element at a pixel could be broken down as consisting of RGBCMY or RGBCMYK which builds up in proportion as paint is added and mixes in proportion as it is blended.

Light reflects directly off of RGB pigment components, which is combined with
the light reflected by the canvas through CMYK pigment components (which attenuates transmission subtractively)
which is also added to the light due to RGB in the bulk of the paint reflected but also as attenuated by CMYK.

As the bulk paint is added (more coverage) more and more CMYK results more transmissive attenuation of the paper color, and while the bulk RGB is added in proportion, since it is opaque, it simply attenuates the overall amount of light from the paper transmitting through CMYK. The RBG reflected through the CMYK remains the same in proportion to the light directly from RBG, but both become proportionally dominant with coverage due to the increasing opacity contributed by the RBG.


The recipe for these can be discovered with some math and experimentation. All kinds of pigments in theory should be capable of representation using this and mixing colors should reduce to mixing these kinds of pigment element amounts. Glazes, and transparent paints... and arbitrary levels of thinner (RGBCMYKT - T for transparent?) could be simulated.


But the above is speculation as regards to how one achieves simulation of real world media blending... it may be incorrect or simply not the best way of doing this... all I know is the software that cracks that nut and makes a real oil painter feel that blending colors on screen is the same as in real life...
that indeed will be the winner.

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[Pat McDonald]

Mark, I agree. I always, always, come back to AR. It isn't perfect, we all know that, but it is the best IMO.

Kate, I agree. The only thing is that for all Rebelle's wonderful watercolours I've yet to produce anything with them that I'm totally satisfied with. In fact, their Acrylics produce better results, for me. This is all so personal.

Nekomata, I'll (probably) give Rebelle's oils a try - with an open mind. Who knows?

DarkOwnt, Thank you for your interesting and detailed observations.

It raises a question I often ask, is the way forward for digital painting programmes to be exactly that: digital? Is the quest to mimic 'real life' a false premise?

I'm not sure, but the one thing I always looking for is the ability to blend colours on the canvas in a way that feels organic and natural. That, and the ability to produce work that is satisfying.

[DarkOwnt]

Hi Pat:

I don’t believe each software needs to do everything or to be everything to everybody. Many will and should push the boundaries of new digital media (black ink and its brush engine comes to mind), whose end look, and active feel can be anything ingenuity can dream up.

That said, there will always be room and some demand for a digital simulation of traditional media. I’m not a proponent of software doing the latter versus the former, after all we live in free countries, the market will demand what the market demands, but I am primarily in the market for the latter, and voting with my wallet for advancements in that area. And IMHO ArtRage is very well placed in the latter market versus the former.

[Pat McDonald]

Yes, DarkOwnt, I agree. What will happen, I am sure, is that each piece of software will create its own niche ...

Rebelle, watercolour?

Ar, Oils?

[DarkOwnt]

I think AR is still at or near the top of the market for oils/acrylics and the custom brush is perhaps even better than the built in ones. And yes Rebelle's big draw is its watercolor.

Now AR (and also Rebelle) is also a good "all rounder", and it needs to be that to stay competitive, but being a "a good all rounder" is only a necessary condition, not "sufficient condition" for viable continued existence in the market.

Due to the innovations of its creators, AR's marquee features and realism in oils sets it enough apart, puts it shoulder to shoulder with the best, and ensures its continuing viable place in the market.


Hopefully, as the market continues to improve and becomes more competitive, AR's new features and developments will continue to keep it at the top.

[Pat McDonald]

I agree with your comment about the Custom Brush ...

... I use it almost exclusively ...

[wschweizer]

I use both programs, and I like both. Luckily both of them are still available at a fair price.
The new Rebelle oil brush is great in my opinion, it is getting closer to feeling like real painting.
As long as both programs are available at the current price range, it is no big problem using both.
Other programs are 4 times as expensive and don`t offer half of the quality.

[Kate12345]

I just wonder what real experts (not me unfortunately) think of Corel Painter? I got Corel Painter 5 with my Wacom tablet, and honestly am pretty underwhelmed with it for real painting, although I probably haven't really given it a try. I like the fun of the instant paintings, but thats it. I did try the free trial of Corel 2020 and in this case, was overwhelmed by the complexity! People seem to make really good art with it, but way to complex for me. I (semi) mastered photoshop, and thats my limit.

[wschweizer]

I think in the end, it is just a question of what you personally like better, and which was your first program to paint with. You probably will always like that one better than others. It is the same with music production programs. People are fighting about which one is better since the time the programs came out first. Basically, you can create the same kind of music with any of the high end programs, just the methods are different, and the interfaces.
I think it is similar with many things. People are able to create great metal jewelry with nothing than a hammer and a charcoal fire, sitting in the sand. But of course it is probably more fun doing it on a jewelers bench with all kinds of fancy tools and hellfire-blowing torches. Buying new stuff and testing it out is part of the fun, for me also. Sometimes I even have to be careful not to forget about the purpose of the tools I buy, with all the testing and experimenting.
But if I see that it is possible to do the things I want to do with the cheaper solution, I will buy the cheaper one. No reason to think I missed something, just because the price of the more expensive program suggests automatically you must have missed out on something, and you always want the best thing available (different with jewelers tools - cheap tools usually don`t pay out).

Similar with cars. I don`t need a Porsche, if I only need the car for driving to work every day and sometimes going on a short trip in the landscape and to the woods. For this, a cheaper car is even better. But if someone is happy with his Porsche, that`s good. He can drive by me on the highway, no need to get envious. He can drive the way he wants, I drive the way I want.
So I can say, I am perfectly happy at the moment with Artrage and Rebelle 4. Don`t need anything else for my needs. I can achieve exactly the stuff I want with them, I can achieve stuff I never expected when I started painting digitally in 2011. When a new version of Artrage comes out, I will buy, that`s for sure as well. I am sure I will like it. It surely changed the world of digital painting for me, and Rebelle did again in its own way.
I hope that such relatively small, ingenious companies will be able to survive amongst the big market leaders.

[nekomata]

I tried out the rebelle oils - it's pretty much the same acrylic brush tool that has already been there for ages with beefed up stroke depth.

they got the brush feeling right, and the impasto looks decent.
color mixing and blending provided with it does not feel like oil at all, not even remotely.
there's a lot of nuance that even derelict releases of corel painter already nailed better than whatever rebelle does now, and artrage has them implemented better than both of them.
oils tend to produce beautiful complex tone mixing gradations that AR oil and custom brush tools replicate really carefully. even painter® thick paint™©, no matter how useless and slow it overall is, did the pigment color matching well.


rebelle doesn't blend across layers either, and even with decent transparency glazing/layering/blending possibilities, the overall tactile feeling it leaves behind is closer to pushing cheap synthetic paint diluted with too much handling medium, not the creamy, voluminous thick oil paint artrage does out of box.

that being said, if it makes existing rebelle users happy, I'm glad for them!

[NickBussy]

I just wonder what real experts (not me unfortunately) think of Corel Painter? I got Corel Painter 5 with my Wacom tablet, and honestly am pretty underwhelmed with it for real painting, although I probably haven't really given it a try. I like the fun of the instant paintings, but thats it. I did try the free trial of Corel 2020 and in this case, was overwhelmed by the complexity! People seem to make really good art with it, but way to complex for me. I (semi) mastered photoshop, and thats my limit.

I tried the 2020 demo of Corel painter earlier this year too. I very much agree about the complexity of the program. I did get some fantastic, realistic stroke results after some time tweaking the bristle engine. However, the software interface and process is just far too cumbersome to be practical for me. It ran very slow and I have a pretty reasonable machine.

Also underwhelmed by Rebelle 4. Not the step up I was expecting. I need to take another look but I couldn't seem to get it set to blend well on the canvas, rather having to go back and use the blending brush on existing strokes.

Looking forward to the next version of ArtRage - it has been very quiet since the release of 6 with very few updates. Lots of great ideas been thrown around in the wish list thread though.

[wschweizer]

I couldn't seem to get it set to blend well on the canvas, rather having to go back and use the blending brush on existing strokes.

Looking forward to the next version of ArtRage - it has been very quiet since the release of 6 with very few updates. Lots of great ideas been thrown around in the wish list thread though.

From my experience, it blends very well on the canvas. You need to apply very low pressure, then it blends. But in the beginning I had the same problem and I had to adjust the pen pressure towards more firm, then it worked.

Looking forward to a new Artrage version as well.

[Somerset]

Some of Rebelle's features look verry interesting. Especially the Drop Engine and the Blow Tool. And it has colour management. But it's expensive. Much more than ArtRage, even because they take lot's of money for additional content. And they only accept payment via credit card and Paypal. I don't trust in both, so I would not be able to buy Rebelle, even if I wanted to. Think I'll keep on rageing.

[Pat McDonald]

Kate, I started my journey with Corel Painter but became disillusioned with them.. Each upgrade seemed overly expensive and offered little.

It was a revelation to move to Artrage. Everything just seemed to flow and I've always thought that they 'play the game' with updates and pricing.

I've not tried Rebelle 4 yet, but I do know that the digital art market is moving at a pace and new and imaginative ideas will break through.

Pat