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DarkOwnt
08-24-2017, 12:06 AM
Hello all:

Did the following to get a better handle on ArtRage Oils...

done in one layer, wet-in-wet as an attempt to simulate Alla Prima. As you can see I have no formal training... also I am not confident with a "loose style" which was the point of the exercise for me.


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It's based on the reference and the exercise in the following video:

https://youtu.be/0Gml1xl72qE


Challenge (easy): Make your own version of the pear in the video using the AR oils, wet (no insta-dry) and on one layer ... make it look as natural, wet, and as "loose" as you can... make it look like it was painted naturally with real oil (see video).

(Also looking for comments and any feedback to loosen up my style)

RedSaucers
08-24-2017, 01:31 AM
I think I might give this a go!, I haven't really done any still life before and I'm looking to improve on my oil brush skills

HwyStar
08-24-2017, 01:31 AM
Hey DarkOwnt!

Great challenge you have given us! Mark Carter's video is a great reference to use when talking about realism versus painterly and his view points on the subject.

Here are some screen prints to use as direct reference with Mark Carder's painting result too:
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I won't be able to get to painting my result until this weekend.

By the way... Nice oil work on your pear!

pat1940
08-24-2017, 06:22 AM
This is a great painting of the pear, can almost touch and feel it, good work

DarkOwnt
08-24-2017, 10:46 AM
I'm so excited! Can't wait to see your pears and discuss techniques!
Thanks for the feedback pat1940 and hwystar!

pai
08-25-2017, 08:15 AM
Great realistic oil effect on the pear. I like it. :)

RedSaucers
08-25-2017, 08:53 AM
Here is my effort, I literally had no idea what I was doing, but it was so much fun! :)

and the video time lapse : https://youtu.be/SiAIALkCxX4

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DarkOwnt
08-25-2017, 09:33 AM
Awesome RedSaucers!

Very painterly! I must say while watching the time lapse I laughed a few times... I could tell you were experimenting and pushing new ground,, rethinking and well completely redoing a lot of stuff.
The end result is quite loose, with impactful strokes, and nice color and value variations.. It looks messy close up (which is awesome) and passes the squint test (or distance viewing test) for a realistic looking pear. Your brush strokes also are large and natural looking. (mine sometimes look too small and zig-zagged which belong in a pencil sketch not in brushwork)

I really like this.

enough feedback/critique...

What did you think of the process? How was the experience of wet-on-wet single layer painting, what did you like or dislike... what did you have to change compared to your normal process... any other observations?

RedSaucers
08-25-2017, 12:34 PM
Yes!, you could certainly see my brain working and trying to figure what worked and didn't work as I went along. There was a point when I could feel my brush gradually reducing in size to detail the skin at which point I felt a bit lost on how to finish it. But I forced myself back up again and simplified some of the strokes, it was only right at the end that I reduced the brush to add in some blemishes, and my usual outlining :)

I made extensive use of the thumbnail view almost more so than looking at the painting itself and came to rely on it to work out which strokes looked good to my eye. I have found myself using this method more and more recently as if it looks good in the thumbnail then I know I am on the right track.

I have started to experiment a lot more on wet on wet recently, probably due to watching a few Bob Ross marathons on Twitch LOL. I still haven't quite figured out how long my brush strokes should be, short strokes seemed to work the best and haven't quite got the feel for blending yet. Also I wasn't quite sure how much of a thinner to add to the paint. I tried to stay as thick as possible to show the strokes but at times it almost seemed to be too thick and that I was just swirling the paint around on the canvas without really knowing what I wanted.

I think I might try some more still life and experiment some more with the oil brush and see where it leads me, my paintings recently have been getting thicker with paint and I want to try and properly figure out how to better control my brush strokes.

Bertrude
08-25-2017, 09:50 PM
Nice challenge, I couldn't get it right with the basic oil brushes - it ddn't look particularly natural or loose, so resorted to using the palette knife too. I hope that's not too much outside the spirit of the challenge :o

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DarkOwnt
08-25-2017, 10:53 PM
Very nice pear Bertrude! I like the purposeful brushwork throughout, short strokes of similar size gives it a unique feel and texture. This combined with the color variation borders on optical blending (to my untrained eyes anyway). Nice work!

What was it about the oil brush that didn't look natural or loose? What kinds of things did you want the brush to do (or not do)?

Bertrude
08-26-2017, 12:07 AM
That's a good question. Firstly, I have very little experience with real world oils so it's hard for me to be objective about it. I tried using them a teeny weeny bit many years ago but didn't really have a 'feel' for it and the drying time was a bit of a hindrance.

I think part of the issue why I feel it doesn't look natural or loose (or at the least the painting before I took the palette knife to it) is because to me it wasn't. It felt too self-conscious perhaps. I find it very difficult to work in a loose manner and I tend to overwork stuff or labour unnecessarily on things. I probably should have given myself a time limit of some sort to encourage an economy of brush strokes. The knife is great for that though - I love being able to blend and loosen up an image in this way. This was a great exercise to help with this though and is probably something I should try and do more regularly :o.

Some of the things I'd perhaps like the oils to do is kind of roll up at the edges of the strokes, like when a brush stroke flattens the paint more in the centre of the stroke leaving thicker rolls or clumps on the outside edges where the pressure would push it outwards. I think this would make the paint feel thicker and more natural at times. I'd also like something that simulates the ability to roll the brush head in the paint to form ridges etc. My tablet doesn't support tilt or roll but a way to mimmick it somehow would be pretty cool (working on underlayers with thick paint, tubes and glitter works well, but not in this case with a single layer painting).

Some way to alter how stokes trail off would be good too. I find the way they taper tends to look somewhat false.

Also, a clumpier brush and palette knife would be good too - I've read on here about folks wanting a Bob Ross style tool. I'd love one too! I'd adore a tool that did the sort of thing he did when he'd get a roll of paint on the edge of the knife and gently dragged it down to form these awesome, highlights and shadows of clumpy textured mountain sides with minimal work :D.

pai
08-26-2017, 07:09 AM
I am definitely not a still life painter but it is so interesting to watch everyone's different way of painting this method. So I wanted to give it a try as a challenge too.
Here's my version. All oil and one layer followed the video. haha..not really alike though :)


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HwyStar
08-26-2017, 07:43 AM
Everyone has done an awesome job! This is fun and a great exercise for everyone to do. You can really learn a lot by watching Mark's videos. Do you know that he painted George W. Bush and his painting was hanging in the White House for a while?

DarkOwnt
08-26-2017, 08:57 AM
Hey Pai nice pear!

It has that loose messy dark quality that always grabs my attention. Very painterly! I especially like the color and value variations throughout that hint at and build the total. Yours still dances from a distance (or in a squint) and that's very cool.

What did you think of the process? Any observations, comments, or takeaways?

DarkOwnt
08-26-2017, 09:05 AM
Quick note to all:

Hey I'm loving this! Keep the pears (comments and discourse) coming!


I'm learning so much from your work and comments. Also, I'm starting to realize I actually prefer works with a loose messy look up close, but which look realistic from a distance. There really is something magical mysterious about that... So, I'm going to try to move away from "fussing" about the details (and I've abandoned thinking that near photographic reproduction is somehow ideal) and will be aiming at this "realistic from a distance" painterly approach, as my goal as a hobbyist painter.

PS: You've all inspired me to do-over the pear myself... !

pai
08-26-2017, 01:45 PM
Hey Pai nice pear!

It has that loose messy dark quality that always grabs my attention. Very painterly! I especially like the color and value variations throughout that hint at and build the total. Yours still dances from a distance (or in a squint) and that's very cool.

What did you think of the process? Any observations, comments, or takeaways?


I enjoy the process a lot, that's why I painted again..haha. Observations and takeaways:eek:..mmmm.. I think I more focuse on seeing the shape and form is what I felt when I painted second time. Overall, it's fun to paint again. This time I used plain canvas with no texture. :)


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Enug
08-26-2017, 09:15 PM
Fun to see the different interpretations. Here's mine. I found it a difficult exercise as I find it difficult to paint loosely. I would love to and this is good practice. Towards the end I only had about 3% loading on the brush to soften the edges. Like Pai I enjoyed the excercise and might try again. Either that or set us a new challenge! Fun!:D


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HwyStar
08-26-2017, 10:37 PM
Spoiler Alert: * * * I Cheated * * *

Now that I have gotten that off my chest; I want to explain why, this time I cheated: Traditional painting and digital painting are miles apart in capability. We can do whatever we want with a click of the pen. We can paint as real or as fake as we want using any tool: Oil, Pallet Knife, Eraser, Blender, Tracing, Tracing Colors, References, Canvas settings/colors, yada, yada, yada. I exploited every one of these tools to come up with this image in 25 minutes with two layers.

My next painting, which should take "much" more time will be using the carder method which dictates that we should visualize a spot of the reference, select it's color using a "physical" color checker (https://genevafineart.com/collections/all-items/products/color-checker) then paint even, smooth, small strokes of paint with as little blending on the canvas as is possible. When you see my next painting (which will be later on this weekend; I have some chores to do) you will laugh at my true abilities! ArtRage gives us super-human capabilities that only people that have years of training and abilities can make their paintings look like real pears in a painterly fashion!

93677

PS: I know that I suck as a painter and I have many years of study ahead of me.

Now that you professionals have painted real paintings how about showing us your ArtRage version?

DarkOwnt
08-27-2017, 01:59 AM
Pai, nice second pear! Dark and tasty!

Enug, very nice. What can I say, your work is always pleasing to the eye.

DarkOwnt
08-27-2017, 02:09 AM
Spoiler Alert: * * * I Cheated * * *

Now that I have gotten that off my chest; I want to explain why, this time I cheated: Traditional painting and digital painting are miles apart in capability. We can do whatever we want with a click of the pen. We can paint as real or as fake as we want using any tool: Oil, Pallet Knife, Eraser, Blender, Tracing, Tracing Colors, References, Canvas settings/colors, yada, yada, yada. I exploited every one of these tools to come up with this image in 25 minutes with two layers.

My next painting, which should take "much" more time will be using the carder method which dictates that we should visualize a spot of the reference, select it's color using a "physical" color checker (https://genevafineart.com/collections/all-items/products/color-checker) then paint even, smooth, small strokes of paint with as little blending on the canvas as is possible. When you see my next painting (which will be later on this weekend; I have some chores to do) you will laugh at my true abilities! ArtRage gives us super-human capabilities that only people that have years of training and abilities can make their paintings look like real pears in a painterly fashion!

93677

PS: I know that I suck as a painter and I have many years of study ahead of me.

Now that you professionals have painted real paintings how about showing us your ArtRage version?

Ha. Very nice pear HS.

I look forward to your pear using the carter method. Btw I actually made myself a palette of colours using the closest thing to a color checker... I put the reference on a bottom layer, and tested colours made by eye on a top layer . No sampling was used just matching by eye. Once I had my palette I removed the reference from the bottom layer and put it in a reference in the corner... put by pallettebin a second reference in another corner.

Can't wait to see your painterly product! Nice discussion too... more on that later.. I too have chores!

damasocl
08-27-2017, 03:35 AM
Great oil...!!!
Congratulations...

sabena
08-27-2017, 09:35 AM
Dark Ownt Very good work :cool:

BushcraftOnFire
09-07-2017, 05:48 PM
Here is my submission. I put my signature on a separate since it's a digital file. But I think that would probably fall within the guidelines. Thanks for looking

David

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DarkOwnt
09-09-2017, 08:17 AM
Hello BrushcraftOnFire:


I like the bold impasto and smooth coloration is calming.

I see some "contradictions" between the color and texture of strokes... Did you achieve that with insta-dry, multiple layers, or a paint-stroke-textured paper?


Nice Pear!

Cheers!
DO

BushcraftOnFire
09-10-2017, 04:15 AM
I'm not sure where you are referring to Dark. I did what the challenge said... Left insta-dry totally off.. used one layer (I did use a separate layer for the signature) etc.

One thing I DID do was use the color picker often to slightly vary color... and vary the Pressure, Loading, and Thinners while I was painting. I also used the knife once or twice on flat mode just to spread color (IE: The lighting effect on the book). Texture in the piece was from varying brushstroke pressure

Thank you for your kind words...
David

DarkOwnt
09-11-2017, 02:53 AM
I'm not sure where you are referring to Dark. I did what the challenge said... Left insta-dry totally off.. used one layer (I did use a separate layer for the signature) etc.

One thing I DID do was use the color picker often to slightly vary color... and vary the Pressure, Loading, and Thinners while I was painting. I also used the knife once or twice on flat mode just to spread color (IE: The lighting effect on the book). Texture in the piece was from varying brushstroke pressure

Thank you for your kind words...
David

Awesome.. A chance to learn a new trick!

I have indicated the brush stroke texture I am referring to in red outlines. Clearly there are bold impasto strokes (which I like) which are essentially perpendicular to the edge of the pear (indicated with the blue lines).

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I have tried to replicate the bold impasto at ninety degrees to a color boundary using oil brushes, but I fail every time, either the straight edge of color is broken, or the impasto stroke is flattened/wiped away by my colored brush stroke. I cannot even achieve the additive cross-hatch weave impasto look (on the pear near the blue edge on the right) using a stiff brush without wiping away bits, making mine look more like a set of square bumps rather than a weave you have achieved. I have to resort to multiple layers or insta-dry :(

I'm very intrigued, how did you do it?

BushcraftOnFire
09-12-2017, 06:09 AM
OK Bro... Now I see what you are asking... I think

All that I did was use the oil brush there.. IIRC I used it at a relatively small size With light pressure. I then took the knife and ran along the edge to got a smoother line I believe. I am not a traditional oil painter .. so I don't know HOW I achieved the results really.. LOL! I definitely overworked the painting (As a traditional watercolorist I can say that. I just continued to work and rework each section until I got what I was looking for.) I can say that just touching the canvas will put a good amount of paint on it.. Like dabbing? Then that paint can be worked in.

DarkOwnt
09-12-2017, 07:55 AM
Cool effect!

BushcraftOnFire
09-12-2017, 08:00 AM
SO I spent an hour trying to replicate it.. and I couldn't either. Finally, I dug up my PTG file to check my settings. Because it was on a single layer I didn't have my layers view open.. only my settings and color picker view.

Having said that.. I did a boo boo! And I totally apologize since I didn't even realize it.. but I still did not "Truly" go by the rules. I like painting on a colored canvas.. but I don't necessarily like to use the fill tool of background color. So I made a background layer of a very dark Brown, Maroon, and Gold (Kinda across the color wheel from the final colors in the painting) with the oil brush at a 500 scale (I believe). I didn't think about it since I did the entire "painting" on a single layer.. but that BG layer must have had the texture picked up in the Paint layer (does that make sense?) I uploaded the background only here.. hopefully it will explain what I mean.

I thoroughly apologize for the "misleading" texture. So I think that explains what you were asking. I surely didn't mean to misrepresent anything.. And I learned something.. I now understand what Bump Blend Modes are :)

David

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DarkOwnt
09-12-2017, 01:40 PM
Ah! That makes perfect sense. I think pre-painting a canvas with a color and letting it dry is something traditional painters do sometimes. The word for it eludes me. Thanks for clearing that up! Since the pear itself was in one layer it still qualifies as a simulation of alla prima! Cheers!

LDFA
09-16-2017, 05:35 PM
Absolutely incredible work. If it was posted somewhere else I would think that it`s a real oils on a real canvas. Thank you for you challenge advice! I should definitly try it.

DarkOwnt
11-22-2017, 01:58 PM
OK so I took another run at this... trying to stay looser than the first attempt. Brushwork looks sloppy and it still looks digital to me... I haven't a clue what I'm doing wrong or how to do it right.

Looking at the real painting by Carter, and seeing how lush organic and messy the simple broad strokes are ... kinda just frustrates me to no end.

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DarkOwnt
11-23-2017, 02:43 AM
Spoiler Alert: * * * I Cheated * * *

Now that I have gotten that off my chest; I want to explain why, this time I cheated: Traditional painting and digital painting are miles apart in capability. We can do whatever we want with a click of the pen. We can paint as real or as fake as we want using any tool: Oil, Pallet Knife, Eraser, Blender, Tracing, Tracing Colors, References, Canvas settings/colors, yada, yada, yada. I exploited every one of these tools to come up with this image in 25 minutes with two layers.

My next painting, which should take "much" more time will be using the carder method which dictates that we should visualize a spot of the reference, select it's color using a "physical" color checker (https://genevafineart.com/collections/all-items/products/color-checker) then paint even, smooth, small strokes of paint with as little blending on the canvas as is possible. When you see my next painting (which will be later on this weekend; I have some chores to do) you will laugh at my true abilities! ArtRage gives us super-human capabilities that only people that have years of training and abilities can make their paintings look like real pears in a painterly fashion!

93677

PS: I know that I suck as a painter and I have many years of study ahead of me.

Now that you professionals have painted real paintings how about showing us your ArtRage version?


Hello HwyStar... still waiting and hoping for your second version of the pear, the painterly pear using the Carder method!!

(As you can see I am struggling to get the real painterly messy brush stroke effects which are easy with real paint... any tips would be helpful)

As for the "ArtRage" version of the pear that is something I will probably do as well.

eighty+
11-25-2017, 12:51 AM
:D
Hi dark Owl got there in the end :D :D :D ok CIAO SLAINTE

DarkOwnt
11-25-2017, 05:13 PM
Hah! Very fresh looking pear! Good one. Cheers!

Dm7
12-04-2017, 09:52 PM
Hi guys,

I'm new here, but have been familiar with ArtRage for a while and used it on my tablet, but the real thing is that I just got it for my desktop which I wanted in the first place. Big thanks to the sales they had going on. :D

Okay, back to the point here, I was surfing thru this forum and saw this thread. Thought it was a tremendous and fastest way to get used to ArtRage so here I am with my pear-y (yeah you read that right, pear-y!) piece! :D

However, I'd like to mention that I have some experiences with real oil painting and I was frustrated with few things in ArtRage:

- The brushes vary a lot in size with pressure - is there a way to make it more constant? I know my long flat brushes, for example, are more or less constant in its size.
- With real oil, it was super easy to blend and use almost no load to add subtle detail. In ArtRage that was nearly impossible with one stroke. Dirty, thick or with thinner didn't work, same for low load. A custom brush may make it possible, but still, maybe one of you know the trick for that?
- Knife, it only blends specific area. It seems like if I over-blend it with my brush, it becomes too dry for anything to blend with.... is that true for you guys? How do I avoid this?

Thanks guys,

Your pieces are great and inspiring! I do know the frustration of not being able to do loose strokes. I am facing the same problem! :D
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DarkOwnt
12-06-2017, 02:49 AM
Hi guys,

I'm new here, but have been familiar with ArtRage for a while and used it on my tablet, but the real thing is that I just got it for my desktop which I wanted in the first place. Big thanks to the sales they had going on. :D

Okay, back to the point here, I was surfing thru this forum and saw this thread. Thought it was a tremendous and fastest way to get used to ArtRage so here I am with my pear-y (yeah you read that right, pear-y!) piece! :D

However, I'd like to mention that I have some experiences with real oil painting and I was frustrated with few things in ArtRage:

- The brushes vary a lot in size with pressure - is there a way to make it more constant? I know my long flat brushes, for example, are more or less constant in its size.
- With real oil, it was super easy to blend and use almost no load to add subtle detail. In ArtRage that was nearly impossible with one stroke. Dirty, thick or with thinner didn't work, same for low load. A custom brush may make it possible, but still, maybe one of you know the trick for that?
- Knife, it only blends specific area. It seems like if I over-blend it with my brush, it becomes too dry for anything to blend with.... is that true for you guys? How do I avoid this?

Thanks guys,

Your pieces are great and inspiring! I do know the frustration of not being able to do loose strokes. I am facing the same problem! :D
94368

Excellent pear! I really like how you reinterpreted it in a classic slightly brown cast, it makes the paint look more somber and the work more dark and classical (hope my description makes sense!).


Thank you for your honest feedback about the software. Software developers need to hear what artists and users are looking for, what they like, what frustrations they have etc. Generally a software developer would not have any idea what to focus on or improve if they did not know what was important to their users!! So good on you for being HONEST.


Just an idea, when giving feedback and asking for tips, on the forum, as a real painter you have a unique opportunity to submit snaps of REAL PAINT with your questions. Trying to do something that real paint does? you can easily show what you mean with a little snapshot of the stroke. Want to make suggestions or add to the wishlist for ArtRage something which real paint or brushes exhibit? submit them with a little photo of the real thing! Lot's of good close-ups would be awesome! It's something we don't see enough of around here. With so much talk about "real" media and "real" oil paint... it is probably true that only a minority of folks here really have any exposure to real paint... your providing examples would be a BOON to this forum and also to the development of the software IMHO.

Cheers!!!

Dm7
12-06-2017, 11:00 PM
Thank you DarkOwnt, yes you make sense. ;)

Do developers even look at this forum? Just wondering. I'm not sure if I can pull it off, but I'll try my best to compare ArtRage with oil painting whenever I can. I'll have to keep my camera next to me when I paint and remember to take some pictures. :D

I am aware that I can use custom brushes to do it, in fact, I used that to make my next piece, the one with watermelon, but it doesn't have that impasto effect like it does with real oil brushes. So yeah, there are some workarounds, but still some pros and cons about it.

I'm just more of a nitpicker - mind ya, ArtRage is one of the best software that comes the closest to oil feeling.

Color mixing is another story... hahaha I'd imagine it's hard to develop proper behavior since some pigments are more transparent by nature than others and that alters everything. That's what keeps oil painting exciting for me. It's like brewing with chemicals to see what happen. :rolleyes:

Sorry for my rambling! I loved your thread and I hope we can do more of alla prima challenges in the future. I think it's a great way for us all to learn and improve.:cool:

DarkOwnt
05-11-2018, 01:51 PM
Still waiting for HS to do a painterly pear using the Carder method.

:)

HwyStar
05-11-2018, 09:54 PM
Don't count on it... Mine went bad and I had to throw it away. Has it been nine months already? Time flies. I find it very hard to paint the same painting twice.

Your pear looks great Dm7! Or is that DM7? I can never remember the third way to write that music theory stuff.