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Enug
02-03-2015, 01:40 AM
Deleted as I thought I had permission to use Robyn's brush - I must have mistakenly thought when she showed the presets that she was sharing. So Sorry Robyn!:(

I'll try another background later.

RedSaucers
02-03-2015, 02:12 AM
Yes I really like those eyes.

copespeak
02-03-2015, 08:32 AM
Lovely painting June. Using my background style and scrubby brush, I see!

Bobbi
02-03-2015, 08:53 AM
We must have canines on the brain. I saw this and had to chuckle. The eyes are especially well done. Very good work.

Albert
02-03-2015, 09:25 AM
Very good work. :cool:

D Akey
02-03-2015, 12:54 PM
Really quite fine work. Paid off the time did. Great around the eyes and the colors are fantastic. What breed is it then? My mind went to pit bull, weimaraner, lab or something else? I don't know that whole range of dogs by name very well. I had a dachshund growing up.

Enug
02-03-2015, 02:10 PM
Red - Thanks, I like painting eyes and always do those first.

Robyn - yes your brush - it is just so useful when you don't know what to use for a background. You will see a lot more of it. Thanks for your generosity in sharing.:cool:

Bobbi - I just went and had a look at your beautiful dog. Yes, we must have been on the same wavelength.;)

Thanks for looking and commenting. Albert

Yep, you guessed it DA, a weimaraner, not one of mine. I grew up with bull terriers and later I bred Shelties and also had several RC collies (Lassie) - dogless now.

Enug
02-03-2015, 09:56 PM
New background.

85372

D Akey
02-04-2015, 02:40 AM
Deleted as I thought I had permission to use Robyn's brush - I must have mistakenly thought when she showed the presets that she was sharing. So Sorry Robyn!:(

I'll try another background later.

Is this supposed to make sense? Is it facetious? Or do we just let it all pass in subtext between two ladies bonding in the outback all down-under style.

copespeak
02-04-2015, 07:35 AM
Nah, all good Mr Akey! :) :)

justjean
02-04-2015, 10:05 AM
Lovely eyes on this gentle looking dog, June

Enug
02-04-2015, 12:35 PM
Thank you Jean.

DA - to put you out of your misery and so others don't do the wrong thing as well. Copespeak requested that I not use her 'signature background' technique. She shared the preset in response to Caesar's request and I thought it was to be shared with all members.

Caesar
02-04-2015, 11:48 PM
You certainly succeeded to convey its canine expression and emotion here.

DarkOwnt
02-05-2015, 07:55 AM
Thank you Jean.

DA - to put you out of your misery and so others don't do the wrong thing as well. Copespeak requested that I not use her 'signature background' technique. She shared the preset in response to Caesar's request and I thought it was to be shared with all members.

Enug -

You can use any technique you want as long as you do it on your own from scratch and do not use code, or data, or image clips, or files generated by someone else (copyrighted material).

So do not despair. You can create your own technique which is substantially the same as someone else's.. so long as that technique is not a patented method.

copespeak
02-05-2015, 11:04 AM
Removed by author

Rachelle
02-05-2015, 11:54 AM
Robyn, June,

I feel for both of you in this matter.

I can truly - and likely, many others can too - see your point, Robyn, about wishing your background style is recognized as a signature style.

I can also truly see that others can appreciate it, and want to try it, and even emulate it. Just as masters' artworks are admired and emulated, so is yours.

I'm in awe of your paintings and special background too, and hoping for some time to try it myself, although I'm probably going to go at it by trial and error and discover my own way of achieving a very similar result. The point is, whatever technique I will use to get there, once I eventually get the desired result, it WILL look as close to yours as I can make it, for yours is so beautiful and admirable.

I also see the common sense in what DarkOwnt said about copyrighted material and such. We ArtRagers all have license to use our App, with full usage of all functionalities and tools and combinations of tools.

This notion, even if obviously true, wouldn't stop me, personally, from feeling bad about my personalised style to end up emulated and copied. It wouldn't feel so unique anymore.

In a nutshell, no one has done any harm to anyone willingly - yet it doesn't prevent the possibility for some hurt to be the effect. It might also depend on what expectations we have about an action we take.

Best regards to Robyn and June,
and all :)

Enug
02-05-2015, 01:58 PM
Robyn - I would like to put one thing straight before I delete the whole thread.



Recently June asked me for the settings, and I felt I had little option but to give them to her as well. I didn't ask her to leave my background style for me, but hoped she would develop her own way of using it.


I DID NOT ask for the settings - I used the settings you posted in this thread - http://forums.artrage.com/showthread.php?48197-Welcome-to-my-Garden&highlight=scrubby+oil+brush you even described how you used the brush. The only other time you and I exchanged pm's was in May of last year when I asked if you would paint a banana with line and watercolours. There is nowhere shown in any post that I asked for the settings as I didn't need to - you published them in the above linked post.

You may have confused me with that other member you mentioned in your pm - I won't drag her into it by naming her.

I have deleted the preset but I have several other brushes that produce a similar stroke and all I have to do is scribble a colour over a solid background, apply a mode layer or two and I get my effect, you unfortunately will think I am copying you. That would be me developing my own way of using it as you said you hoped I would.

Your pm to me was not 'gentle' it shocked and hurt me with it's accusations - I think you realised that too as you next pm seemed to be an apology for the tone of your first pm. Unfortunately I bruise easily and it takes a while to heal.

I hate that it seems that I have been made a scapegoat because you regret giving away your technique - none of this is my fault.

Rachelle
02-06-2015, 03:02 AM
Sad situation.

Just in case my previous post here could be interpreted as a hidden message of resentment, towards June's experiments at similar tool usage as mine: Not!

June, I'm honoured that you admire my technique/style enough to endeavour putting time and effort in emulating and/or developing your own from the 'Rachelle start point'. What you do with your ArtRage, your electronics, your fingers, your eyes and brain, that is all June!

Yes part of me can feel similarly vulnerable as Robyn apparently feels - I'm sure many could relate to this, at least to some extent if not fully - about 'losing' the exclusive control over what we come to consider 'our' style. However, before I posted my art here, and my comments about my art, including any tips and clues to my how-to, I did ponder on how I would feel if someone else started using similar technique and style as mine. And today, I'm really glad I did! So in that light, I happen to own up to my action, by accepting that others might develop a comfort in using 'my style'. How ever I would feel about it, I would not hold someone else responsible for how I feel. At least I hope not! I can't predict the future, but at least, for now, this is how I feel. I hope to continue feeling enough confidence about my art and style that I won't start feeling too vulnerable in the face of others emulating my art and/or style. If my feelings change, then I will have to own up to that.

So rest assured, I do not feel bad about your experiments with some of the tools and tricks and techniques I use. And I do like the abstract images you shared, very much! Keep 'em coming!
...I might end up asking you for tips! :cool:

Oh, and I really liked the Sad Eyes Weimaraner, with your blue scratchy background. It is still beautiful with its new background, indeed, yet I sense (and share) a bit of your disappointment in feeling pressured to modify it.

And as I previously said, I do feel for both of you.

Caesar
02-06-2015, 03:31 AM
I think that all these clarification exchanges were carried out politely and with a positive attitude, frankly and friendly as they should be among friends and respectful people. I hope and wish everything's settled now if any whatoever misundestanding could have verbally risen, since i don't see any disputing intent, my dear friends.
Personally, since I may have inadvertently caused the problem with my curiosity, I can assure that I may have tested a similarly set brush (no firm memory thereabout), but I never used it or Robyn's one in any posted image of mine, neither I stored it among my presets, also because I'm far from being a diligent, presetter or being methodical in my approaches.
So, can we open a sparkling spumante or prosecco bottle and have all friendly drinking together? ;):o:D

D Akey
02-06-2015, 06:08 AM
I still hold out for mud wrestling as the honorable way to settle this misunderstanding. But Caesar's on to something. Champagne would go well with it, so long as he's paying.

Robyn, it's a wonderful style. You'll have many more paintings to do, and I hope your neurological issues sort themselves out and you return to good health as soon as you can. I know art can be very healing, especially if you are in a healthy head space when doing it.

June, you're getting so darn good.

I would like to see you as friends.

copespeak
02-06-2015, 08:26 AM
Removed by author

Enug
02-06-2015, 01:11 PM
Rpbyn - I take it then that this is some kind of apology for wrongly accusing me of asking you for the preset and knowledge on how to use it?

copespeak
02-06-2015, 02:03 PM
No June, you can't. Move on.

Enug
02-06-2015, 05:02 PM
In that case it's not going to happen without an apology.

Caesar
02-06-2015, 11:08 PM
Van Gogh and Gauguin in Arles, eh? :eek:;) Well I guess in Middle East all started somehow that way, honor and pride may have added to the rest and now we just have to wonder what next and worse ... by ISIS or anyone else. But I would ask: what is really at stake? :confused: Sometimes I feel so good not taking myself too seriously .....:rolleyes::) God bless you!

Enug
02-07-2015, 12:19 AM
Wise words dear Caesar - so many more important things in this troubled world to sorrow over than two women of a certain age, arguing about who has the ownership of a stupid background to a painting. It's only a few brushstrokes for goodness sakes!

I will continuing enjoying playing with paint brushes and pretend none of this nonsense ever happened. I bet there will be bated breath to see what my next background will be.:p

I have pm'd Hannah asking her to remove this thread - found I can't do it myself.

God bless you too.

PS. You may not live anywhere near Rome but I bet you can recommend the best place for me to view some wonderful art when we visit in April.;)

DA - I'm working on a kookaburra just so you will know what they look like.;)

justjean
02-07-2015, 12:59 AM
Good on you June :)

Enug
02-07-2015, 01:04 AM
Thanks Jean, life is too short.:eek:

D Akey
02-07-2015, 01:47 AM
See, as I suggested. Mud wrestling. Works every time. I just wish Caesar would have been a little quicker with the champagne.

Caesar
02-07-2015, 02:12 AM
Dear June, if in Rome, in the town I mean, especially within the amazingly wide circle of the ancient walls, but even in most places outside all around, You should rather ask where You wouldn't see or stumble in any artpiece starting with architectural ones ...:o;) Anyway just tell me the period You'll be here and I'll let You know what and where, apart from from the most famous resident exhibitions and musei, such as Galleria Borghese or Doria Pamphili or the Vatican Museum or the Galleria d'Arte Moderna or the Maxxi for Contemporary Art etc., You may also visit for some transient exhibition. Not to cite the major basilicas and the many churches and aristocratic palaces full of art, and this just staying in Rome ...

Take care

Cesare

Enug
02-07-2015, 02:58 AM
Hi again Caesar, I was lying in bed reading and before turning off the light I thought I'd better check in as this whole thread might have vanished into the ether if Hannah awakes before I do. NZ is four hours ahead of me so she probably will.

I realise it was an ambiguous question. I have visited Rome twice before and have seen the Vatican Museum, Sistine Chapel and various basilicas - but then I was not interested in art or the old masters. As you say I will not be able to avoid seeing art but I thought there might be something 'special' I should see while in Rome.

Tomorrow, I will pm you with some dates.

Good night!

Caesar
02-07-2015, 04:39 AM
I see. Something special whatsoever or some specific kind of attraction in particular? Say music, restaurant or pub, park or landscape from a hill (Pincio or Gianicolo), a Circus, sightseeing by bus, shopping, the Tre Fontane (three fountains) church in the place where St. Paul was beheaded, the still working underground Roman aqueduct, curiosities like Lucrezia Borgia's balcony or the Bocca della Verità (truth mouth) or the ancient Ponte Milvio (they removed thousands of padlocks progressively placed there by lovers though) or ponte Sublicio Trastevere or Piazza Navona movida ... ?:rolleyes:

DarkOwnt
02-07-2015, 06:57 AM
Hi again Caesar, I was lying in bed reading and before turning off the light I thought I'd better check in as this whole thread might have vanished into the ether if Hannah awakes before I do. NZ is four hours ahead of me so she probably will.

I realise it was an ambiguous question. I have visited Rome twice before and have seen the Vatican Museum, Sistine Chapel and various basilicas - but then I was not interested in art or the old masters. As you say I will not be able to avoid seeing art but I thought there might be something 'special' I should see while in Rome.

Tomorrow, I will pm you with some dates.

Good night!

Enug:


I think removing this thread would be a disservice to the art community and in particular the ArtRage community. Disputes regarding purported "ownership" of techniques are very instructive for really thinking about art, ownership, personal goals, self-esteem, etc. If anything it will make people think about things.

Personally, I look forward to works which are ostensibly identifiable "grand-children" of the background technique and associated art, coming from you! But make no mistake they will be YOUR KIDS.

Besides, you are the LAST person who should request this thread be removed. Its presence brings you no embarrassment or shame... in fact, quite the opposite.


Sincerely
DO

Rachelle
02-07-2015, 08:26 AM
Enug:


I think removing this thread would be a disservice to the art community and in particular the ArtRage community. Disputes regarding purported "ownership" of techniques are very instructive for really thinking about art, ownership, personal goals, self-esteem, etc. If anything it will make people think about things.

Personally, I look forward to works which are ostensibly identifiable "grand-children" of the background technique and associated art, coming from you! But make no mistake they will be YOUR KIDS.

Besides, you are the LAST person who should request this thread be removed. Its presence brings you no embarrassment or shame... in fact, quite the opposite.


Sincerely
DO


June,
I agree with DarkOwnt.

Thanks DO for stating it so efficiently.

I hope HannahRage has the chance to see this, and touch base with June, before deleting it.


Regards,
:)

D Akey
02-07-2015, 10:24 AM
The unfortunate thing is that I've seen this kind of exchange several times on this site and it often leads to people leaving and a disruption of the tone and a personal contraction. This once highly vital site has comparatively diminished to a crawl for the last couple years. And just when it seemed to be perking up a little, we have this.

I am not saying anything about whose right or wrong in this instance. I can see how this all happened, but it's more like watching a traffic accident in slow motion outside the high school where you can't do anything to stop it. You can probably sort out whose at fault, but the fact remains that there's injury, and for me at least it's not pleasant to watch. And that's how I experienced this.

There's always that kind of gamesmanship available for those who are seeing their personal agendas playing out, finding a fight and then picking a champion for their cause, but to me it's simply sad watching the light go out in an artist. I have found that it's a matter of whether there's graceful interaction or not despite the urge to win or save face or whatever. Because the internet seems to provide an endless supply of bodies and there's a certain anonymity, many people bypass social comportment, even in the face of responding to an unfair attack. (Have people learned nothing from being married?) It's a shame and I find there's always a sort of lingering aura present the longer it drags on.

I'm remembering a number of incidents here in these forums over the years where people brought in personal agendas and it caused rifts that never repaired. And this once was a glorious website where people from all over the world came and shared their art experience and exultation at discovery and the joy of interacting with people who would never ordinarily overlap socially for many of the reasons that you can just look at the world today and see.

Were the people responsible for these rifts who threw the wrench into the works wrong? Yes and no. Arguments can be made for every side of any one of the reasons people should not be brought together. After all, it's extraordinary when so many diverse people can take a respite from the crap that the world foists on us, and see our commonality despite all the reasons we should trample on one another.

I don't expect anyone who has not seen this stuff going on over and over to have any interest in what I'm saying. But I just see this as the ever present demon Separation rearing its ugly head. One can save face or whatever their own interest is, but it's always at a cost to the group. People are flawed. Artists are people. And we can choose the high road or low. It's always better when we learn and make choices that are not just self-serving.

Self-interest at all costs is a little too low for my tastes and I've been around this particular type of traffic accident enough to walk away and let people who are in their karmic classrooms play out their scenarios because that's the class their in, while I can push off to other things with different lessons more on target for where I am. We'll see what happens. Maybe fighting is necessary to participate in this world and not be ground down. Maybe I would have done better to fight along the way. Who can say. But I'm personally trying this other way.

copespeak
02-07-2015, 10:51 AM
I agree with you Mr Akey. I tried to get my point across in a quiet polite way, out of the public arena. Getting it dragged all over the forum has made me vey sad.

I am not just a 'lady of a certain age', I am a practicing artist of 30 years experience. I have won over 40 prizes and commendations, had numerous successful solo and group exhibitions, opened art shows and judged as well.

I have been a teacher on this forum and an invited beta tester. I have advocated the use of Art Rage at every opportunity. I love the program and applaud the developers for providing us with such a magnificent tool.

I have taught June watercolour techniques also and praised her for her results. My gut feeling told me that this would turn ugly as soon as she asked me for the preset, but hoped she would be original in her use of it. She was not.

Her interpretation of what actually happened is deeply flawed, but it doesn't matter to me any more.

If I taught a certain technique to another artist and they copied it slavishly, and then hung that work in a gallery next to where my work was, I would be rightly affronted. That copying diminishes my work, and it has on this forum. I will practice it elsewhere.

ALL my images have now been removed from the forum. I thank everyone who has been so wonderful to me. I have made some truly beautiful friends.

A note to the moderators of the forum: Maybe amending the rules of posting to stop these disputes before so much damage is done might be a good idea. Interesting debate is all very well academically for the wider community, but character assassination is another thing altogether.

hildee
02-07-2015, 02:14 PM
Ok then, so that's why I never received a reply to my very polite pm 1st January to copespeak re permission to use her brush. Ah well, at least now I know why.

I won't say much more but re what happened in this thread's situation, I've been there done that In Spades. Let's say 15 years of it, on and off. I do agree with you Akey but there's also the other side that if someone doesn't want something copied or used, a style or whatever (although imo, not wanting a style copied is highly questionable), it shouldn't be shown because artists love to learn from each other and (god forbid) COPY!!!

Rant over.

Edit: I agree with Dark. Threads like this are an education, a warning, a help, and can bring clarity....even if it's just to give all members an encouragement to "lighten up, guys" :D

Also Akey, I too remember this forum years ago. Quite a pleasant place. Why forums have to deteriorate I'm not sure, but lets remember that people make a forum. There's your answer.

copespeak
02-07-2015, 03:38 PM
I do apologise to you Hildee, for not responding in a timely manner. I am dealing with a rapidly escalating serious illness, and read your PM and then didn't go back in to the AR forum to respond for quite a while. Then this awful business developed and I had no idea how to handle it. I did not malign you in any way in my PM to Enug, merely that I didn't know how to respond.

I might also add, I am a SIMPLE MEMBER OF THIS FORUM, under no contract to instruct, share tools, or not mind if I am copied by using a tool I have developed. I joined the forum as a place to show my work and learn as much about using the program as I could. I can proudly say I have copied no-one in this time. I don't need to.

Yes, this was a very happy place not so long ago.

Enug
02-07-2015, 05:21 PM
My gut feeling told me that this would turn ugly as soon as she asked me for the preset, but hoped she would be original in her use of it. She was not.

Her interpretation of what actually happened is deeply flawed, but it doesn't matter to me any more..

How many times do I have to say it? I DID NOT ASK FOR THE PRESET OR MAKE A REQUEST OF ANY SORT ABOUT IT. I can't understand why you insist in repeating this falsehood. Why have you chosen to single me out in this way? I had intended to finish with this nonsense but you seem to have this fixation about me asking for the preset. Why can't you accept that you are wrong and it just never happened. You have accused me of this right from the start - show me where I ask.

You say my interpretation is deeply flawed - here is the original pm to me and my response. Note to Copespeak - you misremembered the reason you gave in the pm as to why you didn't reply to Hildee. Perhaps it's your flawed memory which has been responsible for this unpleasant situation.


Re: June
Quote Originally Posted by copespeak
Hello June, I really must say I am a bit saddened to find you copying my signature background after I gave you the setting for the oil brush. I began using it in September 13 when the stiffened oil brush came out, and use it on most of my work as a graphic design element, not just because I can't think of any other background to put in.

When you asked me for the settings, I had misgivings that I would lose that, but did anyway because basically I am a generous person.

Hildee has also asked me in a PM for it, and I haven't responded for the reasons above.

Now, if I want to use it, I am made very aware that viewers will be regularly seeing it elsewhere on the forum, and it will just become quite humdrum.

So I really am not posting my work anymore.

Anyway, that's up to you what you do, I can't stop you.


Oh Robyn, I AM SO SORRY! I didn't realise that I was doing anything wrong. So if I can't use the brush I will delete it from my presets.
June.

And I did delete it and changed my offending background and it all snowballed from there. It has only been kept alive by your responses continuing to slander me and by the posts in supporting me.

I DO NOT WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS ANYMORE. So please everyone - thanks but leave it alone now. Let's consign it to the trash can.

copespeak
02-07-2015, 05:55 PM
I am sorry June, but this is not over until it's over, while you continue to try and discredit me.

You dragged this deliberately into the public arena when I tried to keep it private.

You told me that I had shared the preset a while ago and you couldn't find it, and could you have it again. Otherwise how would you have it to 'delete'? My guess is that post has now been changed.

The use of the brush I don't mind; I shared it happily elsewhere. It was your blatant copying of my background, and telling me I would see a lot more of it that got my bristles up.

Rachelle
02-07-2015, 07:06 PM
I am sorry June, but this is not over until it's over. You told me that I had shared the preset a while ago and you couldn't find it, and could you have it again. Otherwise how would you have it to 'delete'? My guess is that post has now been changed.

The use of the brush I don't mind, I shared it happily elsewhere. It was your blatant copying of my background, and telling me I would see a lot more of it.

I'm going to sound harsh. And patronizing. Which makes me cringe.

Yet there is just so much tip-toeing around a hot potato (I like to remix my idioms!), so I'll try to own up to my probable new reputation of patronizing.

Robyn,

As much as I grasp that you feel hurt and frustrated, I don't get why you insist on pinning this on June. Or anyone else if that were the case, for that matter.:(

I have come across your thread where you share your scrubby brush settings publicly. That was very nice of you. (Although you possibly regret it now.) Did anyone force you to share it? Or rather, did you feel you couldn't say no? These two notions are not the same. But you know that already, don't you?

Now, that June or anyone would want to use a preset which you took a fancy to - a beautiful fancy - correct me if I'm wrong, but as a holder of an ArtRage licence, I (we) can use ANY settings combination which the technology provides, right? I'm not restricted in any way, right? I'm not expected to AVOID usage of certain combinations, for example, a 25% size oil brush with 34% loading, just because someone else took a fancy to using it repeatedly on their artwork, and then disclosed that preset? Likewise, with physical media, I'm not expected to avoid using a certain thickness of crimson impasto, just because some other artist - even one that I would happen to know and mingle with! - already fancies that combination?

We already know you admit this common sense, as you state above: it's not the use of the brush, so much as what you call the "blatant copying of my background, and telling me I would see a lot more of it."

How could June or anyone guess what's in your mind? How can she guess you're going to dislike this notion of her using it in the form of a background? And if you indeed dislike this notion, the bottom line is, should your disappointment dictate what tools we may or may not use, and what we can and cannot do with them?

Furthermore, how is a painting done by June, suddenly "your background"? It may indeed look like your background on her painting, yes, but as far as we know, she painted it herself with her ArtRage and tools, her hands or toes, her eyes and brain... No one is disputing that, right? So... since when is this a crime? You certainly do seem to portrait it as though it is. A perspective of yours, which is, I think, one major crux in this story.


I get that you are hurt. Very much so. I'm most probably not the only one getting that notion. And I feel for you. I do.

Yet you keep attacking June for something she did without any apparent malevolence. And frankly, with some blatant and repeated character assassination on your part toward her - and not the other way around. Let's call a cat a cat.

You are feeling hurt, and that's real, but June is not responsible for this feeling/reaction of yours. Your disappointed expectations are. And in your shoes, I would feel the same way - that is, disappointed and hurt, and such. Accusing someone else for my feelings and expectations would make it a different ballgame though.



Best regards, Robyn.
I know from experience that this can be overcome. I wish you can experience that, too.


Yeah, I've been there, right where you are.
That's why I'm calling a cat a cat.
I've been that cat.


Now exhale. Breathe in. Get grounded.

...just talking to myself...

hildee
02-07-2015, 07:37 PM
I won't drag her into it by naming her.


So that was me, Enug. I had a feeling...

No worries Robyn, you had your reasons for not replying to my pm, but...I would've liked to have known re the availability of the preset.


correct me if I'm wrong, but as a holder of an ArtRage licence, I (we) can use ANY settings combination which the technology provides, right? I'm not restricted in any way, right? I'm not expected to AVOID usage of certain combinations, for example, a 25% size oil brush with 34% loading, just because someone else took a fancy to using it repeatedly on their artwork, and then disclosed that preset? Likewise, with physical media, I'm not expected to avoid using a certain thickness of crimson impasto, just because some other artist - even one that I would happen to know and mingle with! - already fancies that combination?

I agree wholeheartedly. That's why I said in my previous comment:


(although imo, not wanting a style copied is highly questionable)


I'm only on the fringe of this argument luckily so all the best with it.

Enug
02-07-2015, 08:29 PM
I am sorry June, but this is not over until it's over, while you continue to try and discredit me.

You dragged this deliberately into the public arena when I tried to keep it private.

You told me that I had shared the preset a while ago and you couldn't find it, and could you have it again. Otherwise how would you have it to 'delete'? My guess is that post has now been changed.

The use of the brush I don't mind; I shared it happily elsewhere. It was your blatant copying of my background, and telling me I would see a lot more of it that got my bristles up.

Copespeak - you have to get over this fixation that I asked for the preset - I saw in offered in your post - I tried it - liked it - used it - deleted it. What post has been changed? Listen to what you are saying - you are not making sense. And this is just another false accusation - it would appear that you are trying to discredit me. Of course I could find it if I wanted too - that is what 'Search' is for.

I don't see the following as dragging it 'into the public arena'.

DA - to put you out of your misery and so others don't do the wrong thing as well. Copespeak requested that I not use her 'signature background' technique. She shared the preset in response to Caesar's request and I thought it was to be shared with all members.

And I don't see anything 'blatant' in this remark -
Robyn - yes your brush - it is just so useful when you don't know what to use for a background. You will see a lot more of it. Thanks for your generosity in sharing.


Usually this would be seen as a compliment. Unfortunately, I didn't see the barb in this post, or what would be coming.


Lovely painting June. Using my background style and scrubby brush, I see!

While I am about it - here is the next pm you sent - having 2nd thoughts about the tone of the first pm?


You are very welcome to use it; it belongs to Art Rage, please, just the way I use it for my backgrounds. Thanks June.

Sorry to upset you, but my health is seriously crap at the moment, and it doesn't take much to crank me up. Take care, and I'll see you in the forums! A number of us have health problems we could blame for our actions - I'm in remission from breast cancer and facing another (unrelated) operation in the near future - but we don't have to take our frustrations out on others. The aforementioned is something I would have chosen to keep private but just saying.....

copespeak
02-07-2015, 10:09 PM
Sorry girls, but I really am so exhausted, confused and distressed by this whole thing, I can't read your posts.

Was it all worth this June, when all I asked was that you not copy my background? Is the need to be so right make dragging this all out into public view, when it was resolved relatively peacefully privately?

I am sorry my first post upset you, and I wish you well in your health.

Time to shut this down. I won't be back.

DarkOwnt
02-08-2015, 07:57 AM
copespeak


As with many arguments, participants can realize they have contributed to further misunderstandings, escalations, or aggravations etc. which were not conducive to resolution. In that way only all are at fault (after the initial conflict) regarding the degree of the hurt and the position many are in at this, the apparent final breaking point.

Ultimately though, sometimes the one who was wrong/unreasonable initially has to take responsibility before things go back to the way they were.... and YES things CAN and SHOULD go back to the way they were. All that is needed is for the instigator of the conflict to reflect on what started it all and admit they were wrong to themselves.

I think you need to eat crow, copespeak.

I think upon calm, rational, and genuine introspection you will realize you were wrong and unreasonable to request that anyone refrain from any artistic technique. As an artist you should know that such a request is an attack on the spirit, passion, and community of Art. Deep in your heart you know you are not that kind of person...it's not your way, you are an Artist and you have made a mistake which is not in your character.

Once you take responsibility for this with yourself, you will be able to communicate your regrets to those hurt by the request. You will redeem yourself in your own eyes as well as everyone elses.


Really, we ALL want to do art, to help, encourage and teach each other, to reach our greatest potentials and appreciate works by fellow artists.


I entreat you copespeak to take some time and think over this. Look deep into who you are and overcome this mistake of yours... and get back to making art and participating in the wonderful joy of it, here with the ArtRage community.

We value your works and words over the years. But don't do it for us ... you owe it to yourself.


Sincerely hopeful,
DO

copespeak
02-09-2015, 08:29 AM
I left meaning to not return, but was drawn in to read DO’s post.

I don’t know you DO, or what kind of art you do, but have read your posts and considered you a thoughtful person.

You believe I should eat crow. Sorry.

There are nearly 38,000 members in the forum, with 530 active. At last count there have been 800+ views of this thread ..., watching, and some will be reluctant to be drawn in to this discussion lest their position be tainted. I get all that, but you can’t tell me everyone here agrees with it being OK to blatantly copy someone else.

So many other wonderful artists I love to follow on this forum, who all have their unique style. Gary, whose glorious layered abstracts are immediately recognisable, Caesar’s quirky and cheeky drawing style, Vlad's unique illustrations with freckled kids and yellow and purple, ... Damasocl, Eighty+.... So many more that are unique and unsullied by imitation.

There are actually very few players and a only a small handful of contributors.

There is Rachelle, who initially expressed considerable concern about sharing her methods, and discomfort over the subsequent copying of her glorious abstracts by Enug.

There is poor Hildee who has been publicly and unnecessarily named and dragged into it, and is now outraged at me. (If this had not been blasted all over the forum, I would have contacted her privately, shared the preset, and asked that could she simply not copy my background)

There is you, DO, who has taken it upon yourself to be the judge and jury.

Caesar and Mr Akey, who ask ‘why’, and say ‘not again’, and that good people have been lost in the past by the same behaviour in the past.

And then there is the aggrieved, affronted one, who has thrown a huge smokescreen over the fact that I (reluctantly) shared my preset, and method of using it, then was devastated at her blatant copies of my signature background, and her bragging about it! Three times I spotted, one after the other, and promises to do more.

I contacted her, she apologised and said she would delete the preset. I said not necessary. I apologised for being a bit gruff, and that should have been the end of it.

I will backtrack and also apologise about one thing, and that I was wrong about her asking for the preset in a private PM. She did not, it was Hildee.

I suffer from long standing PTSD, and have had my first panic attack in 2 years over this. My thinking becomes muddled, but now I realise, I apologise unconditionally.

It really doesn’t matter, or change anything much because the point is not how she got it, it’s how she chose to use it.

Many readers will agree that these disruptions happens everywhere, worldwide, and all the time. In clubs, committees, boardrooms, where relations are cordial and co-operative, a new person moves in, working hard to ingratiate themselves and gain status. I have personally seen it in two motorcycle groups and a local community group. Torn asunder by the actions of one person, who becomes affronted at someone with some standing in the group, throwing a huge gaseous vapour of back biting over all attempts to resolve it, and searching for every tiny chink in their armor that might bring them undone.

The attacked person sees no alternative but to leave, taking with them their contribution and expertise, and that group is diminished forever. This behaviour becomes a lifetime pattern for the attacker, who repeats it over an over. Each success with another bleeding body swept aside gives confidence to launch another attack to the next victim.

Over the weekend, I was putting some drawings into a local exhibition, so I took this issue to a group of practicing artists, who make their living from selling and teaching. Everyone of them were horrified that I should be expected to back down.

To illustrate my personal standards, some might remember my avatar, with two yellow eyes in a black background?

I really love an artwork by Odilon Redon. See here:

85446

A unique photo of a black cat came on the internet and was circulated widely. I thought I would have a play to combine the two. See:

85445

I loved the effect, but felt that the cat image was so well known and I had no way of attributing it to the photographer, and the background I did was an Art Rage version of Redon’s. So I used the eyes for my avatar, and did not post it on the forum. Maybe this was over the top, I don’t know.

I also have an artist friend who does wonderful hand made and printed linocuts and sells them at my local artist market. I bought one of hers myself and I love looking at it on my wall.

I remarked to my partner that her style would be very easy to emulate on Art Rage, and my printer is good enough to make a realistic version. But would I do that and display them at our market? .... NO, I would not. I would diminish her work, and diminish myself at the same time.

I still have not read the last few posts by Rachelle, Hildee and Enug. They are merely part of the smokescreen. I do thank you Rachelle, for your conciliatory words in your earlier post.

If Enug believes she has the unconditional support of the AR community, think again. You have diminished your standing by your actions. Ponder that as you post from now on.

Postscript: Private messaging is just that ... PRIVATE.

I removed my group of works displaying my signature background, but will post it again, so that others can judge.

85447

D Akey
02-09-2015, 09:41 AM
I don't want to get into the who did what and who is right. I do want to make an observation about how things can get so messy regarding the primary issue and not the personal one about finger pointing and face saving.

The problem comes from what people see as the purpose or use of these forums. Some people see it as a place for them to show their work for the world to see and the people who felt that was "giving away the store" they stopped putting their stuff up. These forums are filled with beginners in addition to professionals.

On the other hand, being the home base where Artrage is getting featured and sold, naturally people have been coming here to learn to use the program and it's an art program and the way tutorials are structured in general, you learn by following the steps as shown. There is a history here of people sharing techniques. So it follows that anything seen here (and anywhere else in the art world) would get copied. The technique and style are entwined, especially for people never having done it before.

I mean look at the Impressionists. They copied the hell out of each other, but then it evolved in slightly different styles seemingly based on their individual process over time. But they were sharing in a community. It also served them to hang together because of the attacks from the Academie. But the point is that they shared ideas and at one point they overlapped considerably in style.

I'm going to hopefully bring clarity to how it happened and will continue to happen. We're in a worldwide situation here and one needs to acknowledge that there are different cultural attitudes about copying, as well there are different stages of development in an artist's path where they copy. A newbie copying a style as close as they can is normal. It's a fact of life. The thing is, if a student is adept they can nail it quick, but being a student they will continue on growing while they absorb an infinite amount of styles and techniques. And the end point is that they come to a new synthesis and to their own style. They just do. Look at any school where the student's work is on the wall. You can see what they're taught in that class. And the teacher either does or doesn't show their work along with the others. Often times they do not. But that's what a school is about -- hopefully showing that students learn and the better the students, the more success for the school.

The notion about individuality is very different in contexts. I can see that if suddenly the student nails it as well as the person showing the technique in an attempt to steal their reputation or sales or something, it gets dodgy if the person being copied feels they're being lessened somehow or stolen from. But that's not the fault of the student. It's more an issue for the source person.

I don't know but that is the base of the consciousness of how to behave until one gets to the level of mastery after which the master opens his own studio and hires people to copy his style. Meanwhile, in the case of students and apprentices and assistants, copying is how they learn the master's style. Same thing in the West.

I think there is something basic there about a consciousness, but it also because of building industries from nothing into something it became huge to the point of it being a cultural truism that comes from the post WWII merger of cultures based on business and selling. Copying and imitation was what would make it work. Also when so much has been outsourced to Asia, they are told to do things a certain way and they have to or they are fired. If you copy as an employee, you're employed. If you copy as a master, you're a thief.

The West has copied many things from the East as well, when they do things better, like Manga and Anime. Our kids steal directly all the time in order to learn and the closer they get it to those sensibilities the higher their esteem in the fan based art community and it may also mean they will get work too. Also movie makers raided Japanese style for instance like for BladeRunner and countless others. It's going to happen.

Now, in the music community there is no doubt that copying someone's signature style is considered very bad form. I saw a tribute to Stevie Wonder in which one of the people performing his work there copied exactly the way that SW had done it on record, only he was now old and the performer had brought the youthful energy back and brought the house down. And SW refused to go onstage to receive his award because of it. The MC had to go on and apologize to the audience and say that there is only one Stevie Wonder. So I get it's considered a bad thing and something of an insult.

Also I heard that the LA Lakers would not play against a high school team because if they won there would be no benefit but if they lost they would be shamed to have lost to a high school team so they just don't do it despite how great that would be for the high school kids. There are different classifications for a reason.

Now as far as the bad feelings and this person should have done this and not done that and they hurt my feelings because and they have to be humiliated, that's all garbage and should be dispensed with straight away.

I hope everybody gets that this is a worldwide forum and it is serving that community in many ways. And I also believe that this all went to pot because of the way it was all handled.

I wish you all the best in that regard and I hope you all learn to manage this dynamic with sensitivity and understanding in future, and to do what ya gotta do, whether it's in showing your work or not, with shared info about the process or not.

The forums would be seriously diminished if either of you were to leave, and certainly in anger. But you will not have been the first.

copespeak
02-09-2015, 10:40 AM
Wise words, thank you Mr Akey. I will go for a while and lick my wounds. We'll see. xx

HannahRage
02-09-2015, 12:46 PM
Hey guys; I'm sorry I wasn't around earlier, normally this forum is so peaceful, it's safe to take the weekends off! I think this is the first time I've had to put my modhat on in this forum since I started working for Ambient Design (other than spammers, of course, but even those I generally don't get to first).

I'm closing this thread, as there isn't anywhere good the discussion can go, and the original poster can't really go back to sharing their art in it, which was the intended purpose. I won't remove the thread, as it does have some very interesting discussion in it, and because the disagreement is over now. Unfortunately, tools and techniques can become very personal, so what to one person is just an interesting new technique to try is another's life's work and identity. Unfortunately, there's no way around that, and we cannot 'ban' other artists from experimenting, tracing, doing master studies, using the same tools, mimicking what works, and falling in love with our compositions and techniques. Many of those things may be frowned upon in a professional career, but are all perfectly acceptable ways of learning and creating art for oneself (which is what this forum is for).

In general, one should credit one's sources, and make it clear that one is copying someone else (and we will try and enforce that as plagiarism is not a good thing), but there is a very large grey area in which one then makes something one's own. But it's also possible for people to be inspired by the same sources, or invent something entirely independently (there are plenty of recorded cases of that!). One person's blatant plagiarism is another person's valid inspiration, and it's all down to perspective, how invested you are, and the words you choose to describe it.

Essentially; ArtRage tool settings are free for anyone to use (I want to emphasise that!). Artistic techniques cannot be copyrighted. Artists learn from each other. Credit should be given where due.

If someone would like to start a discussion in the general forum about the topic in general (i.e. copyright, ownership and specific techniques), then you're welcome to, as it's a very valid discussion. Just don't bring in the specific individuals from this thread, obviously. And if this gets personal again, I'll come and scowl at people in a threatening way.